Bob White

Bob, I thought you had invited a discussion about obedience and disobedience. Whatever gave you that idea. I invite you to find that anywhere in my posts. A couple posters rather than answer the actual question tried to change the topic a number of times at that was one aveneue. The thread was about this.. "the willingness of Scout Leaders to pick-and-choose what rules they will follow based solely on their personal comfort or convenience." Eamonn has asked the same question in another thread following this one, and no one is answering his questions either. Oh lots of folks have admitted that they don't follow rules in or out of scouting but know one has yet to explain the duplicity of being a scoutleader who breaks rules for their person comfort but expect scouts to obey troop rules or risk punishment. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OH PLEEAASSEE, You think violating a BSA policy or going faster than the speed limit puts you in the same social activist level as Ghandi or Rosa Parks. Who did you think you would actually convince with that? Choosing to ignore a rule or law that does not seek to harm anyone one simply protect property and other people simply because it doesn't suit you personally is just lazy and self centered.

Whether you shoplift or murder you are still a criminal. You are not allowed to choose which law appeals to you personally and which does not and then ignore the ones you decide are lesser. Both are crimes. Nor are you excused from the law because you are not caught. Whether you are arrested and brought to trial or not if you do either of the crimes you named you are still a criminal. Packsaddle You seemed to have missed to the point. if you know that chewing gum is not allowed and you choose to do so anyway because it pleases you personally to do so, are you now exempt from the rule? Are you breaking the rule even iof you do not get caught? If you get caught and are not punished are you still breaking the rule? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The question was not what do you think someone elses responsibility is, the question is what is your obligation to following the rules of scouting, and you community? and how do you justify ignoring rules and laws to your scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Good character holds the same weight, and it does not legitimize determining the importance of rules by the use of a personal yardstick. The rules are the same for everyone, and no individual is offered the opportunity to pick which ones he feels is more or less important or which can be ignored based on their personal likes and dislikes.

So the line of distinction for then Hunt is the ability to be caught and punished. Do you then feel no obligation to follow rules where punishment is avoidable? How about when you play a bord game with your kids? Certainly they probably couldn't catch you at it, and even if they did they can't punish you. So are you willing to cheat in a game with your children? If not them how about your spouse. How about your spouse. If you knew you would not get caught. OR if you knew she would not punish you, would you cheat on your spouse? Do you follow rules out of duty to yourself and your personal character or do you only follow rules out of concern for punishment? Ever wonder what it means to be morally straight?

What happened was that someone made a mistake and the council registrar missed it. OR that the pack and troop are chartered by separate organizations within the church. For instance, if the Catholic grade school in the parish actually held the charter on the pack and the church held the charter on the troop as is the case in the district I live in.

I teach them to live by the scout law. To be trustworthy and obedient when it comes to the rules of their community, their family, their neighborhood, and their troop. That if they feel a rule or law is unjust they have have a responsibilty to try and change it but thaty also have an obligation to obey that rule until the time that it changes. And I set that example in my life as did my parents. To simply ignore rules because they do not suit you personally is self-centered and self-serving and is not a reflection of good scouting or good citizenship. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But Hunt the BSA already spells out what the three uniforms consist of, they explain them in training, in the hanbooks, they even give you pictures of them. With all that information if there are people who cannot figure out what the uniforms are with their current names, then how will altering the names make it any clearer? Could it be the problem has nothing to do with the names? Madkins. I could stand 2 dozen people in front of you all in a different looking official BSA "field uniform". Each would be different each would be correct. Any would be appropriate for formal wear. How many subcategories would you want?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Local community laws are absolutely related to scouting. We are teaching scouts the process and values to make ethical decisions throughout their lives. How we teach them to make decisions in scouting will effect how they make decisions in the community. The example we set is probably the most influetioal tool we have as leaders. You cannot separate the lessons of scouting from the behavior in the community. The structure of scouting is a microcosm of howe local, state and federal governments are structured in the USA. You cannot separate the lessons of citizenship in scouting from those of your community. You cannot ignore local laws and expect the scouts not to ignore troop rules. You cannot expect to ignore scouting methods and not expect the scout to ignore yours. I am amused by those who say that breaking laws such as speed limits is ok as long as the police "choose" not to ticket you. Perhaps a class or two in civics were misswed. Legislature makes the laws. Not being caught or not being ticketed does not make the behavior legal only unpunished. Do not kid yourselves. If the speed limit is 65 and you drive 70 then you are breaking the law...even if you "get away with it". If you go 5 miles over the speed limit and do not get a ticket but down the road you get in an accident and it is determined that you were driving over the speed limit...guess what happens. Do you really want to teach scouts that it is ok to break rules if you are confident you will not be caught or punished? Obeying the rules of the community is a part of good citizenship.

Not at all ScoutnDad, in fact the poster of the original question, Eamonn, knows that I agree with him on this 100% and in fact he is asking the very same question that I am asking in another thread and neither of us seem to be able to get a straight answer to it. My response was to you and it was not rude. You claim that if the scout doesn't like the rule that you 'role play' with him to determine the validity of the troop rule. My question was do YOU do this with the laws in your community? Do you role play each law to determine their validity? If not then why teach that to the scout. The rules that govern our societies, whether in or out of scouting, are not optional in their adherence. While you are welcome to work through the representative system of government to change those you disagree with. There is no option offered to only follow the rules you like or agree with and expect to have the rights and freedoms of a citizen in good standing. Eamonn's question, which you did not answer, was 'if leaders ignore rules they do not personally like then how do those same leaders react to scouts who choose to ignore the rules that they do not personally like'? Many here have told about how they pick and choose which rules are important to them and which are not, and yet they do not tell us how they explain that to the scouts, or teach the scouts to do otherwise while they ignore rules. I believe the reason they do not respond is that their behavior is indefensible and they know it.

So when it comes to laws in your community.. do you role play through each one regarding their value and then if you can't find a reason for why you think the law is needed you give yourself permission to ignore it?

While we have had a few rare adult ttrining events that required time out during an standard work week, I have never seen a counil or district or unit schedule a youth activity that required the scout to take a school day off. I would not personally support such a decision.

Why were you even wearing a uniform for a water activiy, hardly appropriate apparel? Why were you leaving late when you had a responsibility that involved the safety of the scouts? Why did you continue to take part in an activity that you did not have the correct personal equipment for? Why did you not listen? Why wear you bringing the PFDs and not the Quartermaster? If the police officer did pull you over it would have had nothing to do with your sockes whether you were wearing the right ones or not. If this is really the story you want to use to validate behavior that you likely would not have accepted from a scout it would seem that you had far more barriers to setting a good example as a good scout leader than simply not wearing the correct socks.

While the CR is a registered positon they only pay thruough one unit and would duplivate with the other units for that CO. In the very rare and unusual event that a CO chartered two of the same units they still only get ONE representative. The Charter Organization Representative represents the CO's scouting program no matter how much of the program they use.

The Charter Organization Representative, just as the name implies, represents the organization and not the individual scouting units that it supports. So regardless of the number of units each Charter organization has only one representative, one vote on the district and or council committee.

My son and his shipmates from his Sea Scout ship will be out in their dress whites posting an 'Avenue of the Flags' early Monday morning prior to the town's parade. As I understand it they have full size flgs from every state as well as all the various American flags from Old Glort to today's. He's really looking forward to it.

I meant no harm. I regret that your first post did not carry the meaning you expressed in your second one or I would not have resoponded. It sounded as if you had never seen the use of the initials that way.

Eagle, Seriously, where does the BSA say to wear the merit badge sash at ALL activities?

As I am sure Red Feather will admit to it, no one on this forum can take credit for the clever acronym of BSA as Baby Sitters of America. That word play hase circulated for over 40 years.

As I am sure Red Feather will admit, The use of BSA as an acronym for Baby Sitters of America has been around for at least 40 years.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As I am sure Red Feather will admit, Theu use of BSA as an acronym for Baby Sitters of America has been around for at least 40 years.

You list several levels of uniform wear when in fact there are two. 1. In uniform. 2. Out of uniform. A complete official uniform is as appropriate without "bells and whistles" as it is with. Which official designations a scout or scouter wears is a matter of unit decisions and/or personal choices. As long as what is worn is worn correctly.

Why should they? The sash is made to go over the shoulder. Just because it fits on the belt doesb't meanit should be worn there. The socks fit on the belt too. Should they be diplayed there?

And there is the problem Madkins, the BSA activity uniform is more than just an troop t-shirt and it is not left for the unit to do 'anything' they want and call it an activity uniform. The activity uniform has both required parts and optional parts. It is not whatever the unit wants to wear with a troop t-shirt. So no matter what you call it, until leaders actually learn what the uniform is the name won't matter.