Bob White

Please show where anyone has said that scouting is about following the rules. I cannot find that in any post. I have only seen where it was said that good leadership in scouting follows the Scouting "program", and rules are only a very small part of any program. This emphasis on the rules is a fabrication resulting from the misrepresentation of what was actually written. No one has even suggested that the sole factor in good leadership is the ability to rigidly follow rules. What was said was that purposely ignoring rules was poor leadership. We could have far more productive conversations if we all stuck to posting what we ourselves thought rather than misrepresenting what others have said. I leave now for our jambo shakedown campout. I hope everyone was a nice weekend. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In the best troops I have seen it's the scouts who look good, and the SM is standing so far back observing that most don't even see him at all.

There is an almost unlimited combination and variation allowed from unit to unit in where you go, what you do, when you do it. But "How you do it" is what makes it scouting, and that is what the content of the training and handbooks give you. It's easy to tell the rules from the "program". In most cases the rules are stated as what you can't do, or what you must do. The program is everything else. Even if you can't tell the difference the fact remains that the closer you stay to doing what the handbooks and training say to do, or not do, the better the scouting experience the Scouts will have. So rather than worry which is what, why not just do what's there for you?

Ok so how to make it work. I think in large part it is to put the purpose of the method into the forefront and not the glamour of the rank achievement. The purpose of the advancement method is to reinforce the use of positive skills and behavior that the scout learns both in and out of scouting. The skill o the leaders part is to give little notice to the wrong behavior and to focus on the expected positive behavior then rewarding that trait once the scout shows that he understands its use and applies it correctly. Too often we focus on the end award when the real growth takes place in the way we teach and test and not it the presentation of the badge. Way to much is made of scouts being pushed by parents. Far more are rushed through ranks by leaders. Too much is made of the difficulty of doing MB outside of meetings. The purpose of the meeting is to stimulate the interest in learning. For the most part, doing MBs in troop meetings is a result of a weak program not the sign of a strong one. Under the scouting program methods the scouts are introduced and informed of merit badge oppportunities and then allowed to choose their own advancement path. A boy who leaves scouting at 18 as a Star or Life scout, who has chosen his own road and made his own plans and goals, is a far better success story than the boy who is spoon fed his Eagle path through a series of merit badge focused meetings and summer camps. Choosing to try and attain Eagle is far more valuable to a scouts personal growth than having it thrust upon him as so often happens. (More later)

I do not disagree in the least Eamonn. An excellent point. I would add though that a convincing aurgument could be made that a truly caring leader would do their best to deliver a real scouting program in order that they might give the scouts the best possible scouting experience they could. That is why I think the selection of the Scoutymaster should not be taken lightly by those who are charged with that duty. BW

You will not find the answer in to this one in the Insignia Guide. Jamboree is a unique event hosted by national, the folks who make the rules, they have unique uniforming for this event you will not find Jamboree uniforming in that manual.

"And I know this isn't in any BSA book or manual but good leaders were good followers." Then why do some leaders, who consider themselves good leaders, not follow the scouting program? It certainly can't be that they were never told that they were supposed to, it's in all the training and all the manuals. Heredity? Nurturing? I think not. It's likely they simply made the choice not to. So what are the chances they might change? Based on conversations on this forum some will and many will not. The only hope then is the knowledge that they will someday have to be replaced. Let's hope the CO makes a better decision next time around for the boys' sake.

I first attended a Jamboree (as a visitor) in 1977, even then the scouts wore a region patch to show they were part of a council contigency from that region. Jamboree is a unique event and has its own uniform adaptations that are to exist only until the jamboree ends and then the region patches should come off. Rather than try to take back patches that you do not need to, just make sure the scouts and scouters understand where they go and when they come off.

I agree Beaver, but until leaders are selected for their personal abilities to fulfill the obligations of the office and not because they can breath and walk upright, the problem of leadership following the program will continue in some units. Let's be honest the program is not that hard to follow.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Trustworthy and Obedient are part of the Law as well. I am not sure you can argue that wanting leaders to set a good example by following the rules of scouting and the community can be classified as contrary to the betterment of scouting. Nor can you easily justify adult leaders violating laws (even speed limits) as being done for the betterment of scouting. Just because I am in the minority here does not mean I am wrong.

I am hopeful that the moderators will remove that post quickly. That has no place on a scouting forum.

Kahuna the fundraising policies are related to the use of the uniform, The travel policies are actually located in the safety policies. I believe you will find that, as far as unit operations, all BSA policies are related to the 4 areas I designated.

I have to say before I answer the question that I am troubled that a scout leader would use terms like bum, garbage, and cr@p when refering to children, even undisciplined children. I have had to counsel well behaved and poorly behaved scouts and I have even had to send two perhaps three home in nearly 30 years. But I have never even been tempted to use such derogatory terms toward a child. I am equally troubled that it was not addressed before now. That being said. The BSA instructs its leaders to counsel scouts as needed. To counsel with parents when needed. You are also instructed that when safety or the effective delivery of the program is at stake to send the scout home and to have the committee and parents meet to work out a solution or to end the boys membership in the unit. In my experience most bad behavior in scouts was a result of low self esteem, poor home environment, or bad habits (or a combination thereof). In all but the rarest of circumstances positive role models and positive counseling EARLY in the cycle solved the problems and helped the scout. But if their bad behavior contines after that effort you need to separate the scout from the troop activities and get the committee involved to find a solution. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The pastor of the church that charters the unit is the Troop Chaplain, the youth minister is the CR, we do volunteer work such as landscaping and exterior maintenance for the church, We donated money from the troop pop corn sales to help pay for a new HVAC system.

The soultion I believe though possible is probably unlikely to happen in totallity. That solution would be for the CRs to make a concentrated and sincere effort to select the right people to the key leadership positions. To often it seems that units are lead by people who are willing to take the position, but not willing to to the job correctly. Being able to wear a uniform and be in charge of other people seems to be a powerful underlying motivation for some people to volunteer rather than to accept the obligation to deliver the Scouting program. You cannot have a quality program without quality people in leadership.

As far as unit operation as distinguished from District/Council operation. There are 4 areas that the BSA controls through national policies. These areas are (in no particular order) 1. Safety 2. Membership 3. Advancement 4. Uniform For specific information a good local resource would be a member of the local training team or commissioning staff. Both should have ample knowledge of the resources available to learn about these policies.

I never saw so many try so hard to NOT answer a question before. I think we have seen every possible avoidance device employed now so there is little reason to continue this thread. I set out only seeking to learn the logic used by leaders who allow themselves different behavior than they accept from the scouts they "lead". What I learned was far more interesting. It's time now to move to another topic.

"I'm sure you're aware of the contributions Eamonn makes to his Scouting organizations. Suppose he chose not to wear regulation BSA socks, or was obese." This was never about how to punish! This is about how does a leader rationalize ignoring rules when they expect scouts to obey them. If Eamonn were not physically fit then he should not be expecting the scouts he leads to be fit, if he does not wear scout socks he has no business expecting the scouts he leads to wear them, and if a leader does not follow the rules he is expected to follow then he should not expect the scouts he leads to follow the rules they are expected to follow. It's just that simple. There is no good excuse for setting a bad example to the scouts as their leader. "BW, I think you "stack the deck." I don't think any Scouter (or at least I hope none) feels they pick and choose rules to obey based on personal comfort, preference or convenience." Actually what prompted this thread was a scouter who said they knowingly wore the uniform incorrectly for sentimental reasons. In other words they ignored the rule because it did not suit them personally to obey it. "If someone came on the forum and called other Scouters lazy and self-centered, said they were duplicitous and could not be trusted, would that person be following the Scout law (a Scout is courteous)? If not, would that be a rule that could justifiably be ignored in these circumstances? If a saw someone rob a bank and I called him a thief would I be discourteous? If a scout leader knowingly ignores rules but expects the scouts to follow them and I call that behavior duplicitous is that any different? If someone ignores rules that are there for all to follow but they put themselves above the law and I call the behavior self-centered can you prove me wrong? This is not the first time this topic was presented. Eamonn raised it a while back in the middle of another thread after a poster said he did not follow rules he did not like. Many posters beat around the bush then too. Do not think that scouts do not see the scouters who say to do one thing but do another, do not thing others in and out of scouting do not see it also. It is even obvious to some of us on the forum. -30-

Another total end run. No one has suggested that rules should be, or are, the focus. The still avoided question is how do you explain to the scout that you can pick and choose which rules you can ignore based on your personal preference, but that they cannot do the same with the troop rules. We have a scout leader as an example who feels that having scouting awards such as the Eagle rank gives him superior discretion of the speed limit laws. Does he tell boys as they earn the Eagle rank that they can now choose to ignore the speed limit as well based on their discretion? It's a slippery slope that has long term effects when we do not set the example we expect the scouts to follow.

Since the scoutmaster is incharge of the advancement program I can not answer to what I do now I can answer to what I did as a SM and what I teach as a trainer and commissioner. The advamcement method in scouting is not the goal or purose of the program it is a tool to achieve the three Aims and the Mission. The goal of scouting is not the Eagle Rank, the goal is to teach young people to make ethical decisions throughout their lives. If eagle Scout were the goal then we fail over 95% of the scouts in the program adn I do not believe that is true. The Advancement Method is a program structure for adult leaders to use to have a program where, (through participation in troop patrol and individual activities) we are able to give positive recognition and rewards to scouts who exhibit the successful use of skills and healthy habits. Where we can teach the habit of continual learning and allow scouts to make self-determining decisions in a safe environment. More later.

Thanks for the tip, should I ever be pulled over for speeding I will show the officer my BSA veterans pin, and Silver Beaver lapel pin. I had no idea that those were free passes for breaking the law. When a scout ignores a troop rule are they excused if they have the Eagle rank as well or does that just work for you? That is the question everyone keeps avoiding.

It would be easy to make this thread were about the BSA uniform regulations, but it's not. It would be easy if it were about the value of civil disobedience, but it's not. It would be easy if it were about group decisions or about customizing rules to the troop you serve, but its not. It would be even easier if it were about other people's values, but it is not. All these avenues used by posters have been attempts to avoid the topic and not have to confront the real question. The question at hand which nearly everyone avoided except for eamonn and FScouter was about how YOU personally expect scouts to follow your troop rules when you admittedly do not follow the rules of the BSA or those of your community. If you allow yourself permission to ignore rules that do not suit you personally then how can you puniSh scouts who knowingly violate troop rules? Then on the bigger picture, how can you teach good citizenship when you put yourself above the laws that others everyone is expected to follow. You do not have to agree with laws to be bound to them. Our system of government, in and out of scouting, is based on a repeublic governed by elected representatives. A part of good citizenship is obeying the laws that our elected officials pass. No one promised you you would agree with every law, but the expectation of compliance is an obligation we accept as citizens. But it seems for many represented here that obligation only exists if you might get caught, or if there was a chance of punishment. BSA regulations exist for two primary reasons, to provide structure and direction to the program, To protect members and property of the BSA. There are no uniform police, there is seldom punishment for scouters who break rules. There is an expectation of character and values among those who volunteer that they will self regulate their behavior. Who would have thought that adult scouters would choose to ignore rules for their personal pleasure? We have seen many examples here, not only in uniforming but membership, avancement, youth protection, even in community laws. How can you expect scouts to accept the Scout Law seriously, or to take troop rules seriously, when their leadership is so cavalier about what rules they personaaly choose to accept and which ones they purposely ignore and violate. Just because there is no punishment does not mean there is no penalty. While you might not be penalized you do harm to the development of the the scouts. Your actions are not unnoticed by the boys. "To keep my self morally straight" that was the promise we take. How can you ignore the rules of your communities in and out of scouting and still keep this promise/

You have the option now to where whatever you want in camp or out. its just that not everything you were is a BSA uniform. Nothing says you can't wear a t-shirt and anything you want in camp. Nothing says you have to n=be in a BSA uniform all the time.

By the way you can't call your youth group The Kleenex Kids Pepsi Pups Goodyear Gang or Beer Nut Boys Because like Scouting these names are legally protected property of others. Communist plot? Hardly. This is not about the uniform. It is about the chararcter (or lack of) in scout leaders who cherry pick which rules and laws to follow and which they feel they can ignore. It's fascinating that the only scouters who have had actually addressed the question posed in this thread feel the same way I do, that if you are going to teach citizenship then you have to set the example by obeying rules whether they are convenient to you personally or not. Everyone else has made excuses for you they breajk rules and have not addressed who they explain that duplicity to the scouts.

So in other words you aren't able to explain the behavior either so you will try to change the direction of the conversation again. Why does it seem so foriegn to all but a few posters here that if you are going to teach scouts to obey the laws of the troop and community that the leaders have to follow rules and laws to and that while individuals can work to change laws they have an obligation to follow them? Eamonn, Fscouter, thanks for dedication to the values of scouting to be willing to live the values you teach. I hope, that like in the council I serve, you are not the exception as we seem to be here.