Bob White

Girls Scouts were granted a federal charter in 1950.

Scouting is not a tough sell. Your problem locally appears to be with the skills and abilities of your sales team. Not all units have that same problem. When you look at the actual scouting program you will find that none of the units you describe follow it, they just all chosen different ways not to follow it. It's unfortunate that your community has not been able to secure better leadership in order to deliver an actual scouting program. What exactly qualifies someone to wear your 'geek' label Lem? And how does one go about getting the job of labeling geeks in your community? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi GW, Without Roundtable training I can see how you would not understand the relationship.

The only thing I would add to TwoXForr list is "an engaging program" Camps can be very different in what they offer as long as what they offer intersts the scouts and enhances the Scouting experience.

At no time did I suggest that the uniform was not official. It is however not the current uniform, nor does it set a reasonable example for uniforming since it has very limited availability. The role of the Roundtable Commissioner is to give unit leaders the "will to do" and the "skill to do" a quality scouting program. I merely asked how wearing an outdated uniform on a regular basis helps her in her role as a RT commission to meet those objectives. As a part of a Blue and Gold them where they are celebrating the history of Scouting it could be a fun element. But as a regular uniform I am asking how does it meet the purpose of Roundtable and the responsibilities and goals of a Roundtable Commissioner.

Would it not be more advantageous to tell them what they can expect since that is what the program should be delivering, rather than ask them what they expect since they could have expectations that are incompatible or unrelated to the scouting program. This is the direction taken by the Boy Scout Handbook is it not, in the forst few pages where it tells scouts what they can expect from the the program? If you tell them what theycan expect according to the BSa and then fulfill those expectations then you have succeeded in your role as a scout leaer. But is you aske them what they expect and do not meet their many and varied expections than you have failed each of them, have you not? BW

Since when is it the unit leaders role to deliver what the kids "expect" rather than deliver the scouting program? If they expect to be able to play dodge ball for 90 minutes a week is that what you are going to do? Adult leadership does not mean the abdication of leadership to the will of the youth members. Its the Scouting program not the "whatever the latest whim is program" We have specific Aims and a specific Mission, you cannot expect to achieve them by wandering whichever way the youth member feels like going. It would be like having a map to a destination and ignoring it then just turning every time someone shouted "turn". If you ever reached the destination it would be by shear luck. Scouting is fun and adventurous, Scout meetings and scout activities can be dull and cheesy. The difference is the in skills and abilities of the adult leaders at the unit level. Kids do not quit doing things they enjoy. So why do some units grow and some units chase kids away? They use the same handbooks, they have had the same training syllabi, they have the same advancement requirements, they have the same uniforms. So what is the difference? The difference is the skills and abilities of the unit leaders. Nothing effects the unit program more positively or more negatively. As an example, Yes, teens want to begin to gain independence from adults, not just from parents. So the BSA program includes (and always has included) Patrol activities and over nighters without adults present. And yet... how many units do you know actually allow it, or even develop the skills of the scouts to the level of being able to do it? Look at who posters on this and other scouting sites blame for poor programming...the handbook, the uniform, the parents, the kids, the rules, the national office etc. etc Who is responsible for the Boy Scout program? Its the adult leaders in the troop. Oh some will say No, no, no its the Senior Patrol Leader, well, they are wrong. The Scoutmaster is responsible for the development of the junior leaders in the troop, if they are not doing their job then the SM isn't doing his (or her) job. The next troop meeting or campout is not dependent on the uniform,. or the handbook, or the national office, or the district committee, or any of the myriad of other excuses commonly used by leaders in units with a poor program. It's the unit leaders that make the difference. They always have been the key and they always will be. There is no such animal as a good unit with bad leaders, or vice versa. If there were any validity to the argument that the problem was with the program then every single unit should be losing scouts and every district should be shrinking and that just is not the case. The closer a unit stays to the methods of Scouting the more successful that unit will be. Units that stray from the program will whither and die. If you are in a unit that is losing scouts the solution that will have the fastest and most powerful effect is to improve the skills and abilities of the unit leaders. Sometimes that can be done by improving the leaders you have and sometimes it means finding better leaders. But the only place where you will find leaders blaming the program for membership loses is in units that do not follow the Scouting program.

"How would my wearing a dress be any different than the Scoutmasters who wear the old olive (pre De la Renta) uniform?" I guess the difference is that they are Scoutmasters and you are the Roundtable Commissioner and their job is different from your job... isn't it?

While there is no title of Merit Badge Teacher, no one can deny that a merit badge counselor teaches, and so they need to have a good knowledge on how to teach and, how to do it effectively. It would be intellectually dishonest to try and keep teaching and the methods of teaching out of a discussion on merit badge counseling by saying that 'there in no position called teacher in scouting'. Any adult involved in the development of others is a teacher. To regard being safety conscious as being lazy is an interesting, but not a defendable, position. What leader with any common sense would first give a scout an ax for the first time and tell him to split some wood, without first reviewing the safety precautions for using and ax, as well as the correct way to use it. Any responsible boater will review the safety precautions and boat operations before taking a person out on a boat let alone sending an untrained person out on one. That would be true on any size or type of vessel whether it is a power boat, sail boat, or even a canoe. In Sea Scouting our boat repairs often include the use of a variety of power tools. It would be irresponsible to let a scout operate a table saw without first going over safety and operational instructions, just as it would to send them on the water in a canoe without pre-training. There is nothing lazy about safety, to think someone would teach boating and not first teach safety is disturbing, especially when you are responsible for the safety and welfare of other people's children. No one said that these things needed to be done in a lecture style of instruction. A good counselor understands how to do this without lecturing. But when it comes to merit badges where safety is an element it is unwise and poorly planned to teach safety AFTER the activity has begun. I do not understand what the Patrol Method has to do with merit badge counseling or with hands on teaching versus lecturing for merit badges. Why Beavah chose to introduce it to the thread is a mystery. To me this is just a smoke screen to avoid the issue of responsible leadership and instruction when it comes to merit badge topics that include an element of safety. Nowhere does the BSA support lecturing over hands on training, and counselors or scoutmasters who use or over use lecturing are not as effective as those who use other teaching methods. But, the ability to use effective counseling methods is controlled almost entirely by the counselor, and most merit badges are designed for one-on-one learning and testing and not for group work. Since the nature of the merit badge topics and their requirements are designed for one-on-one interaction, putting them in a group setting only increases the difficulty for the counselor and diminishes the experience for the individual scout.

Yeah I suppose that some counselors don't use a hands on approach to teaching, but isn't that more a characteristic of counselor? It certainly isn't the method of teaching that is taught by anything in the BSA program. I would bet a lot of unit leaders teach by lecture rather than hands on as all the BSA training instructs and supports. On the other hand there are some skills you don't just pitch an untrained person into without some instruction first. Canoeing comes to mind. Unless you have the luxury of a lot of canoes and enough instructors to put an instructor in each canoe, trying to teach it by shouting instructions and information to abunch of untrained paddlers is an excercise in futility. The same with firearms, woods tools and anyt activity with a reasonoble expectation of injury for an untrained person. This doesn't mean that the instruction has to be lecture style or boring but it does mean that some level of pre-training be done before you simply throw an inexperienced person into the activity. To not do so would be irresponsible. A big problem with summer camp is that a attitude has been cultivated among many leaders both old and new that the measure of the success fo a summer camp is the merit badge count at the end of the week. "We had a great summer camp the boys earned 58 merit badges in total" has become all too common of an occurrence. That is not all together BSA's fault, that is a a "tradition" started and carried on by unit leaders who have a misplaced sense of the purpose of summer camp and of Scouting. I can'y believe the number of scouters I have heard complain and whine when they learn that they do not do merit badges at Philmont. As if the trek experience is not enough if they can't "get the scouts some merit badges while we are here". The merit badge program exists so that each scout can plan his own advancement trail based on his personal interests. It is not meant to be a troop activity. You cannot misuse the program and then the program for not working.

Bigwiggen The Eagle Rank Patch and the Eagle Knot are only for wear on a uniform Shirt not a dress uniform jacket or a non-uniform suit or jacket. You were givin the corect information earlier in the thread, the correct recocognition to wear is the Eagle Scout medal, which is normally worn opinned to the lapel or breat pocket. Have a nice time at the court of honor. BW

Truth in advertising fellas. All the ads in world will not help if the units are not actually delivering the Scouting program. Judging from a number of the posts found on sites like this there are a number of units that don't know, let alone don't use, the Methods of scouting. It does nor take many bad unit programs to negatively impact the gains of the good ones. Talk with your local District commissioner like Beavah. How many unhealthy or failed units does his district see every year, and how do they affect the numbers that jblake is using? How many scouts leave good units as compared with the numbers that leave units with poor unit programs? Is it possible that the solution isn't more ads but better local unit programs? And what effects the quality of a unit program more than any other element? Quality adult leadership. Rather than want more advertising why not want, and work for, better local leadership? Better leadership will improve the local scouting programs, not advertising. Marketing does not make the product better, marketing makes the product more well known. Who do you know that hasn't heard of Scouting?

Just as a good unit program is dependent on the people selected to lead it, so are your District's programs. You should give some specific and honest feedback to your District Chairperson. Let him or her know of your dissatisfaction in the quality of service being offered to the unit. The most effective way would be to also have your CR at the district meeting to voice concern. Just as youth deserved trained leaders, leaders deserve good training. As you know from your previous experience the problem you encountered was caused by unprepared trainers and poor training skills. You need and deserve better service from your council and district.

GW You are in no position to be able to comment on what other peoples standards might be. You usede a partial quote from a portion of the Philmont history to support your misinformation. The Philmont training Center has been in operation for almost 60 years and is a much a part of Philmont as the trek side. It is okay that you do not get why anyone who participates at Philmont is able to waer the Philmont Bull. Thankfully none of the BSA program information rests on whether or not YOU get it. I too was a member of the Philmont Staff Association, and I do not determine what the correct way to wear the bull's tail is anymore than the store clerk, who was also more than likely a member of the staff association. To be a member of the Philmont Staff Association you need to have served on staff or faculty and pay the dues. For GW to suggest that just because some of the things you hear from scouters is incorrect that everything is incorrect is absurd. If you want to know the correct way to wear the Philmont Bull read the Insignia Guide. There is no BSA endorsed rules or "tradition" regarding the position of the tail. In the future should you need correct information on the price of a Scout t-shirt I recommend you ask a scout store clerk. For just about anything else there are far more accurate resources available.

No one said that everything you have learned was an urban legend, however it is likely that some of the things you learned or remember are. We have discussed many of these in past thread. Things like having to be in uniform on trips for insurance coverage, fixed blade knives being prohibited, parents being prohibited from counseling their sons on merit badges, Scouts having to finish merit badges in a year, and the Philmont bull's tail over the shoulder seam meaning you have climbed the Tooth are just some of those urban legends other wise known as misinformation or falsehoods. What I do not not understand is why you be upset about knowing the truth, rather than be happy that you have learned something new. It was the same with some leaders learned that patrols can go camping on their own, rather than embrace the opportunity they looked for reasons to not allow it. They were more comfortable following the misinformation than embracing the truth. AS far as who can wear the Philmont Bull, prhaps GW and others were unaware that Philmont exits because Waite Phillips insisted it be used as a Training Center so thousands of adults who have attended the Training side are as much a part of Philmont as those that have walked its trails.

A Scoutmaster's role is to train junior leaders not punish others people childern. Leave the the boy in hands ofof his parents and the unit committee to determine what should be done. Why allow it to distract you from the youth who want to be scouts?

Actually BadenP the tail of the Bull on my jacket is over the seam and I have not crossed the Tooth of Time. I have however been to Philmont on several occassions as the Director of the Trainining Center explained to everyone at the orientation meeting that they are eligible to wear the Bull, and that the position of the tail has no meaning and that only wearing it over the shoulder seam if you have crowwed the Tooth is just an urban legend. But then again he isn't a store clerk so why pay any attention to anything he might say? Evidently seasonal employees working at gift shops are the best sources of information on Scouting "traditions". Who knew?

That's fine Eagle1977, no one has said that you cannot believe in the legend, Only that the BSA places no validity in it. You are welcome to whatever comfort you find in the misinformation, I would hope though that now that you have learned that it is an urban legend that as with other urban legends in scouting you will consider not spreading the misinformation to others. BW

You will find the same jind of resources are available to you for Venturing as there is for Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. You will find Venturing FaSt Start at the BSA's on-line learning center. You can download a Venturing Fact Sheet from the BSA national website at www.scouting.org. Your local scout office has a Venturing Handbook you can purchase as well as a Venturing Leaders manual, just as with all other BSA programs. There is also Venturing leader specific training available through your council. Also check with your council to see if they have a gathering of local Crew Advisors that you could attend. To answer your specific questions. Yes there are Venturing badges and a Venturing uniform, however crews are allowed to develop their own uniform or use none at all. No, Venturing does not have ranks except in Sea Scouting. Venturing does have recognitions that can be earned in a number of different program categories but they are not considered ranks. Their mission is the same as Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts but they use different methods that the other two programs. I hope your daughter has a great time in Venturing.

It seems that there are units where the troop committees are determining troop programs and troop budgets. While this is fine at the Cub Scout level Troops, Crews, and Ships should have the Youth members doing this task. And certainly if it is not a skill being developed at the troop level then it is unlikely that the skill will find its way into Eagle projects let alone into the upper age programs of Scouting. Here is one method to teach Scouts how to plan and budget utilizing the PLC rather than the committee to do the job. Similar methods can be used to plan and budget Crew and Ship programs as well. First the PLC has to be trainind and guided in deciding what they want their annual program to include, and what aspects they want to be paid by the unit and what will be paid by the families. The more you can include in the troop budget the greater the cooperation you will get fro the families in achieving the fundraising. The more training and opportunities the scouts get the less guidance they will need. In this example we will use a 30 member troop with approx the same number of scouts (10) aging out or leaving as there are new scouts entering each year. The PLC has decided on the program they want and it includes two camporees and a cabin campout in the winter. The Venture patrols major events will include going downhill skiing, whitewater rafting, and but will pay as they go, their other activities are not big ticket items. The PLC realizes that they need some ongoing funds to replace tents as needed as well as troop gear. Not all the patrols have the same patrol needs and so the PLC will develop ways for patrols to have their own gear depending on their needs. The troop is expecting about 10 new scouts and theyu want to be able to give each scout their neckerchief, troop numerals and shoulder tabs at their crossover. In addition the PLC wants the troop to provide all recognitions during the years such as rank, merit badges, POR patches, mile swim, Paul Bunyon etc for every scout and leader. Rather than have separate camping fees for every outing the PLC decides to pay for activities other than high adventure and summer camp from the troop funds. These would leave scouts responsible for their basic uniform and their food. With the help of the troop treasurer and committee treasurer dollar amounts are attached to each budget item and then divided by 30 to determine each scouts responsibility for supporting the troop. One way to show a PLC how to determine a budget and determine how to finance the troop. Keep in mind that not all units are alike and so some numbers may vary. What is important is the process and the kinds of things that should be, or could be, considered. Membership $10 Boys Life $12 Recognitions $18 (1) New Scout Recognitions $2 (2) Camp fees $65 (3) Tent replacement $16 (4) Cook gear replacement $4 (5) Program Supplies $12 (6) Misc expenses $10 (7) Budget $149 per scout 1) based on the average number of ranks, PORs, merit bagdes and other recognitions earned annually it was determined that the troop spends this amount per scout on avearage annually. 2)The cost of 10 troop neckerchiefs, 10 unit numeral sets, and 10 sets of shoulder loops divided by 30. 3)based on the cost of camp fees expected for the outings that have been planned if everyone attends. 4) based on $150 per tent divided by a 6 year tent life, divided by two scouts. By setting aside a small portion each year per person for large reoccuring expenses it keep units from having to go into major fundraising modes as equipment wears out. 5)This would be to replaces things like patrol kitchen items. 6) This provides for props and training materials for scout skills and for special troop meeting program costs. 7) this creates a small fund for small unexpected expenses, as well as replenishing first aid supplies, maps and other incidental expenses. How to meet the budget. The easiest way is to offer families the choice of paying up front, selling $450 (about one order page) of popcorn or a combination of cash and fundraising activitiy. To encourage scouts and families to sell beyond the basics we gave added incentive. For every dollar of net profit earned over the $149 the Scout got half as a set aside in the treasury that he could use toward summer camp high adventure outing and other scout activities. $.25 of very dolar netted over budgeted amout went to the patrol fund that the scout was in and the patrol controlled how that money was spent. They could buy patrol gear, pay for food costs, go on a patrol outing, however the patrol decided as long as it was used in scouting or a scouting activity. The remaining .25 went to the Troops general fund. So if in a patrol of 6 each scout sold $700 in popcorn then each scout got about $40 in his personal set aside, the patrol got $120 and he troop fund got $120. Process wise of course the budget needs to be approved by the committee and presented to the parents. When done correctly the parents see how the scouts are using this as a learning tool as well as a planning tool. They also see how the Scout is expected to support the troop and patrol whether in attendance or not. Which makes them more inclined to have the scout attend and make use of their investment. Again there are other methods, and your program needs may differ depending on the decisons of the scouts. The important elements are that the scouts do the work and make the decisions, and that the process is a teaching tool to better prepare them for adult life and for leadership opportunities that are coming their way in and out of scouting. And of course the process of first planning a program and then determining what the program will cost is key determining how much the annual program should be paid for in each individual unit. This is what PLC should be learning how to do, not making rules on whether Ipods can go on trips,

"Yes, you would think a bunch of adults could make a budget." On the contrary, when it comes to a Boy Scout Troop as we are discussing, I would think that one adult or a trained junior leader should be able to teach a PLC how to make a budget. But it seems that what is happening is that troop committees are determining dues and then seeing what they can do with it. BrotherhoodWWW says "Cost of dues plus summer camp at the low end is $365 with nothing going to the Troops equipment and supplies fund." Well then what are the dues going for and why do they not include what the troop needs for equipment and supplies? First you say that the troop does not cover summer camp and then you say that the scout needs to sell $1300 because with part of that money the troop pays for summer camp. Is it a troop budgeted item or is it a family expense? You claim it to be both. If you are collecting $160 not including summer camp expenses and annual membership and Boy 's Life is about $20 a year. What are you doing with the other $140 per boy if you are not putting it toward Troop supplies and equipment. If the family chooses instead to sell the $1300 in popcorn and nets the $416 you stated and it includes the $205 for summer camp plus the $20 for Registration and Boys Life, then what is the remaining $191 going for if not troop supplies and equipment, and WHY does the family who sells the $1300 in popcorn have to pay $50 more to support the troop then the family who chooses the $165 buy out has to pay? It would seem that over $140 per person in dues after registration and Boys life should by a lot more than hotdogs and Smores for a year. And the folks selling $1300 in popcorn should be asking why they are paying $50 more in dues then the families who aren't selling popcorn. This is why I thought a calculator would be handy. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Out of curiosity.. You say you want to "use" the uniform in your role as a RT Commissioner. How exactly will these uniforms help you support the leaders with the 'will to do' and the 'skill to do' the current Scouting program? What I mean is, if as a Rountable Commissioner your role is to set the example for good uniforming, then how will showing them a uniform that is 30 years old or older help the units in your district deliver better scouting? Is the uniform going to just be part of a display during Blue and Gold season as part of a presentaion on the history of the program, or is this going to be a regular uniform for you, and if so how is that used to help the RT program?

Eagle1977 No one said that you have violated any uniform poicy, nor has anyone said that you sewed the bull incorrectly, or that you purposely sewed it incorrectly. If you have the bull on the left side of the jacket above the pocket then you did it right. If you sewed the tail of the bull over the seam you did it right, If you DIDN'T sew the tail over the seam you did it right. There is no meaning to the position of the bull's tail so as long as the bull is on the left side over the pocket you did it correctly and NO NONE has posted otherwise. The only comment that I and others have made is that that there is no significance to the position if the tail. I'm sure that in the years that have past since you were 15 years old you have learned about other things that you were told as a youth that are not true. I am sure that in your training as a scout leader and a professional scouter you also learned that the BSA program and its traditions are not determined by clerks at a scout shop in New Mexico. The tail of the bull's tail is an urban legend. It simply is not true that you must climb the Tooth in order to sew the tail in a pparticular position. You were misinformed. There was no way that as a 15 year old you would have known. The question now becomes, do you know now, and will you choose to continue passing along the false information or will you help others to understand when they have been misinformed? The only tradition we seem to run into on a regular basis here is that some scouters choose to accept wives tales that have no actual substantiation in any BSA training or resource, but contiually ignore facts that are supported by the BSA dispite all the evidence. I do not think anyone is upset about this topic, but some of us are amazed at the length that some people will go to cling to the wrong information simply because they are comfortable with it. BadenP There are no uniform police. the BSa has always relied on the individual integrity of each person to wear the uniform correctly. I am sure the veteran scouter you speak of is a fine fellow in many ways. He simply has chosen to wear the uniform incorrectly. Certainly if there were uniform poice they would have done something about it over these many years. But no one has because there are no uniform police, there is juyst an individuals choice to do things right or do them wrong. Your local scouter chose to wear the uniform wrong. That does not mean that others need to make the same choice, it does mean howver that his incorrect example will likely confuse others who, because of his tenure, have assumed that he would wear his uniform correctly. But we know that is not always the case.

BrotherhodWWW There were no personal snide attacks made in my post. There was not even an impersonal snide attack made. I questioned the logic and validity of a budget that requires a family to input either $416 or $165, Which is what you popcorn or family donation plan is. You either need $165 or you need $416 but it makes no sense that you need one or the other. Reread your post and mine and you will see that only you have used a personal snide attack and not me. If the troop can meet its budget on $177 then why not have the popcorn sales goal as $530? If a family wants to pay for all or part of summer camp through popcorn sales then why not apply whatever the profit over the first $177 go toward their camp fee? To say they need to raise over $400 or give $165 makes no sense.

What I said was that I would be surprised if would be approved. So far you have only shown that the unit does it. Sctdad still is required to submit the event for approval by his council executive on a Unit Money Earning Application.