Bob White

but notice that the trainers who play the role of the SM and ASMs do not. hmmm

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet." (Perhaps I am not as "lowly taught" as I have been accused of) I do not see how merely changing the title will alter the ability of the adult leaders. The scouting program and the advancement method have always been taught as the prize inside a wrapping of fun and adventure. This is refered to at every level of training and in nearly every related BSA resource. The way to make this prohgram work is by changing leaders not titles. Until a scout leaders has the understanding of how to deliver the BSA program and the willingness to follow the program then no label change will have the desired effect.

As long as all the blanks are filled in correctly you should not have a problem.

Beaver, Why do you suppose some scouters "get it" and some don't? The basic leaders training for advancement says that you teach a skill and test a skill. How can a scout 'rush' to first class and not have the skills if the program is being done correctly in the troop with the teaching and testing phases? If the scout does not learn it or cannot do it, then who is signing the handbooks?! The problem would seem to be not in the scout or the program but the administration and use of the program in the secific unit. Maturity is not a requirement for any rank in scouting. Maturity is the result of experiences and evryones experiences are different. In fact a person can be mature in some areas of their thought and behaviour and immature in others. How in fact do you measure maturity objectively? Rather than worry about something that isn't a requirement, the First Class Emphasis plan is to focus on an active program that is based on those things that actually are the requirements. What specific hurdles exist in a unit that can keep this from happening other than leaders who do not understand, or reject, the BSA program methods? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am all for being upfront and honest with my concerns (big surprise). Ask the adult for the opportunity to have a serious discussion about the goals of the program and the role of the adult leaders. Ask for his input on what the role and responsibilities of the adults leaders should be when it comes to setting a good example for the scouts. Explain that his language needs to change because of the influence it is having on the scouts and on the image of the program. Ask if he understands why this is a concern. Tell him of his value to the troop beacuse of his skills ad enthusiasm but that it does not outweigh the damage done by his language. Ask him what he believes can be done to remedy the situation.

I'm with FScouter.

I am trying to imagine asking a parent to stay awake while we sleep because we know there is a dangerous murderer hiding in these woods! I would bet the sound barrier would be shattered as he or she grabbed car keys and son and sped for home. I'm going on thirty years as a unit leader and I have never had scouts sneak off in the night or anyone attribute damage or mischief being done by the scouts I served. Maybe it's just luck, but I don't believe it is.

BLESS YOU CNYScouter! Good luck getting many positive answers. I can tell you that you have my fullest support and gratitute, and I can think of perhaps a half dozen active poters (at best) who share both your view and your frustration. The scouting program works, and it works better than anything that any individual tweaker might try to do, let a unit full of tweakers. As some of us have tried to point out for a few years here, the solution to most the problems we see, hear, and experience, will come from learning to follow the BSA program better.. not from trying to change a program they have yet to use. I have become convinced largely due to the threads on this forum that the only way to see that your son (and others) will get to experience the scouting program as it is promised in the handbook is to find (or be) the leader who is willing to read, learn, and then follow the program. You are on the right path. Stick with it, become a powerful, knowledgable, force in your sons scouting and in scouting in your community. Remember "We're pullin" for Ya!" Happy Scouting!!! BW

First let's clarify something. First Class First Year is not a program, it is an award certificate. The program planning tool is called First Class Emphasis. The purpose of First Class Emphasis is to give the troop's adult leadership the resources and direction to have a planned, focused, program that will allow a new scout to learn, practice, and apply the skills needed to become a First Class Scout within the first 12 to 14 months of his membership in the troop. Considering only the points I have just shared can anyone tell us what possible negative attributes there are to this program planning method?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn, The addition of a monthly PLC would be a good one. Actually the 10 nights of camping is twice what the current quality unit award requires. I can understand why the list recommends the durations it does for elections, I believe those are the ones recommended by the program. BW

SWScouter's evaluation is right on the money. In addition I would never tell a scout to go rescue someone. The decision to perform a rescue must be a personal decision of the rescuer. Water rescues are especially dangerous and I cannot imagine any scouter ordering someone else's child into such a situation. A properly trained individual knows their abilities and will enter into a resue they feel they should participate in. This is not the military we do not order scouts into dangerous situations. As SW points out the preplanning a safe swim activity is important but you do not preplan an unexpected emergency, you must rely on training and practice to evalute the situation as quickly as possible and act as appropriatly as you can. You do not disregard safe swim lessons in water resue. You use as many as possible in the situation. You still do not dive into water whose depth you do not know and whose bottom quality you do not know. You still do not enter depths you are not qualified to swim in, you still follow the reach, throw, row, and go with support, priorities that you are taught in BASIC scout skills. Your questions Prairie scouter come not from breaking rules during the rescue but from not knowing the proper training PRIOR to the rescue. To suggest that a scout cannot put his lifesaving skills to use without breaking scouting rules is unsupportable and uninformed.

Each chartering organization gets a single vote (not the unit) the CR is the representative for the CO that casts the vote.

You can download high res images from here http://www.scouting.org/identity/contents/13.html

"Thus--for example--we could talk about how often a troop should camp out to do the outdoor method justice." You could but that would not get you very far. First camping is not the only element of the outdoor parogram. A troop could camp every week and not have a godd scouting program. Oh they might become skilled campers but that is not the mission of the program. The minium expected camping can be accomplished with just two one night campouts and a weeklong scout camp. There is a common misconception that a troop is suppoiosed to camp every month, but nowhere does the BSA program state that. What it says is that the troop should have an "outdoor activity each month" and the Quality Unit Award says 6 outdoor activities plus a week ling camp. There are a multitude of outdoor adventres that do not need to include camping. But here is the impotant point. Ed wrote "What part of achieving the goal and keeping the group together requires following all the rules and guidelines?" and that is the inverse of the question we should be asking as competent leaders. Given the choice of knowing violating rules or of obeying rules, I hope we can agree that the natural state of scouting is one of obeying. So the real question which we should be asking is "What part of achieving the goal and keeping the the group together requires that we break rules?" I think everyone would have to agree that there is no part of scouting that "requires" anyone to break a rule. The program is perfectlt workable while staying within all the rules, so why do some 'leaders' choose to knowingly violate them, and why do some find themselves wrestling with how to lead without breaking rules when nothing in the program requires any rules to be broken? Do some leaders really believe that to deliver the scouting program one must violate the rules of the program they are leading? Why would anyone submit themselves to such a dishonest behavior?

I understood it that same way as well SWScouter.

Dan, Is this the kind of criteria you had in mind? The elements all seem to be in line with the BSA program, and they are certainly more challenging than the current Quality Unit Awardcriteria. Ed, To often you hound my posts creating what often appears more of a dialogue than a forum, While I disagree with every point you made I will not adress them until others have the opportunity to do so first.

I agree that 3 and 16 are redundant. I can also see how the others you listed, which represent fundamental elements of the Patrol Method, Leadership Method and Advancement Method of scouting, would not be appreciated or used by some leaders. Those units would not operate at the same high level of scouting that the units who used those methods would and so it is reasonable not to include them in the classification of "Quality" units.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Currently we simply hand the forms to the parents as they enter a Court of Honor, and have them sign the forms and hand them back as they leave.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Youth physicals except those for high adventure activiteis are good for three years to coincide with school physicals. Adults over 40 need annual physicals. In my son's troop keeping the physicals updated is the responsibility of one of the ASMs. When I was a SM I had a committee member do this. We try to give families 12 months warning that the current physical will be expiring this year and give them the new forms to take with them when they go. So far this has worked out just fine.

This is likely a unique situation, after all how many of the posters here have recieved the Quality Unit Award when they knew they had not earned it?

Personally I like this approach which was posted on another scout site. I took the liberty of editing it for length. "I would like to see the BSA change the name of the Quality Unit Award to reflect what it actual measures. Let's call it the Minimum Expectation Award. That is really what it is. The BSA is saying 'if you can't deliver a real scouting program PLEASE at least do these few things. And yet...less than 60% of all units earn this recognition. Troops 1) At some point in time were 100% of your registered volunteers trained in the past 12 months? 2) Did the Troop have a 1-year written program calendar? 3) Do all members wear a complete, official, BSA uniform? 4) Did 80% of the troop camp at least 10 nights in the last 12 months? 5) Did you have at least 4 courts of honor in the past 12 months. 6) Did the patrols and troop follow a monthly theme every month during the last 12 months. 7) Are 80% or more of the scouts who joined in the previous 12 month period still active in the last 12-month period? 8) Have 80% or more of the new scouts (who have been in the troop between 12 and 14 months) completed all requirements for 1st Class? 9) Does the Troop meet for 60 to 90 minutes each week? 10) Does the troop hold elections for Senior Patrol Leader every 6 to 9 months? 11) Does the Senior Patrol Leader get to select all other troop junior leaders except JASM? 12) Did all patrols hold Patrol Leader elections each 6 to 9 months. 13) Does every scout hold a troop or patrol Position of Responsibility? 14) Does the Committee meet every month? 15) Did the troop and each patrol do at least 1 Good Turn Project in the last 12 months? 16) Does every registered adult and youth member wear a correct, official, BSA uniform. 17) Do the troop meetings include the 7 elements of the troop meeting planner? 18 ) Do only scouts lead the troop and patrol meetings? _________________ Commish Train them, Trust Them, Let them Lead. BP" BW

"What part of achieving the goal and keeping the group together requires following all the rules?" Isn't that the same thing the Israelites said to Moses when he brought them the Ten Commandments? That is that attitude that has been used for centuries by people who only want want benefits themselves without a care for the impact of their actions on the community.

The ability to excercise discretion in your decision making and the ability to operate within the rules of an organization or community are not mutually exclusive. people make decisions every day based on their discretion without ever violating a law. I can play a game of basebal and make all kinds of discretionary decisions and never break a rule of the game. Why would anyone see that as impossible to do in scouting?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Yes, Bob White, purposely ignoring rules can be a function of good leadership and an obligation of good leadership too," You cannot possibly be serious. Breaking rules is an "obligation" of a good leader??? Whatever happened to the obligation of a good leader is to achieve the goal and keep the group together? What part of that makes breaking rules an obligation? So if someone meets the goals delivers a good scouting program without ever needing to break a rule then they are a poor leader for not fulfilling their obligation? That's a frightening approach to leadership and to scouting. If you cannot teach good citizenship without breaking rules then you just aren't doing it right. BW

UZ2B, A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money). There was nothing metaphorical in the terms you used, they in fact epithets (a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a person or thing). It is a disparaging name, and is not related to a metaphor in any way. I am curious, I reviewed your 39 posts and did not find a thread where I reponded to you in a negative way, could you please direct me to the post you refered to. I am curious to what I might have said to you regarding adult leadership that could possibly have been more discouteous than calling youth members such awful names. (This message has been edited by Bob White)