Bob White

Anyone who thinks a boy at Jamboree might choose to spend all day in his tent for ANY reason has never camped in Virginia in the summer. Being a pizza in an oven is preferable to being inside a tent in Virginia in the summertime.

No team can operate successfully if only one member knows how to play the game. No scout unit can succeed based on the ability of just one person. It is not necessary to learn the program in a week, a month, or a year. What is needed is the attitude that the program works and needs to be followed, and a knowledge of where to go to get questions answered. How often during a committee meeting have you heard someone say,"what does the handbook say about that?". You don't need to have the program memorized to look up a specific question or learn a skill. You just have to be willing to learn to do it right. Everyone needs to be willing to do it right.

The job is of a scout leader though an important one and a challenging one is not a difficult one. The only thing that keeps any individual from following the BSA program and having a successful unit is the attitude they bring to the position more so than the aptitude. The program can be easily taught if the volunteer makes the choice to accept it.

If you take the time to teach them good camping skills then they will know what not to bring without the need for rules or lists.

It is said that in the future all factories will have only three components: a computer, a man, and a dog. The computer's job will be to run the factory. The man's job will be to feed the dog. The dog's job will be to keep the man away from the computer. Not all training requires a skilled trainer. Depending on the complexity of what is being taught there are technologies available that can transfer the information just fine. The greater the complexity and the more vital the information the more important the skill of the trainer becomes. However even more importatant that the skill of the trainer is the ability and the willingness of the participant to learn. Send a bad leader to training and more often than not you will get back a trained bad leader.

I would agree that advancement and patrol are the most misunderstood methods.

No post or poster was "attacked" by me in the making of this thread. Please be accurate in how such words are used. Such terms do nothing to advance the discussion of the topic but give a suggestion of trying to pick a fight which I want no part of. I wrote only in reference to the topic and comments made regarding it. To say my post was vague is a personal opinion not a fact. To respond to post with references from a BSA resource is hardly an attack. I am confident that the moderators are acutely sensitive to the contents of my posts and would have acted promptly had it not been appropriate.

I stand corrected, the phrase I said was on the tour permit is no longer there. The G2SS says in bold letters ...Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents. The Cub Leader Handbook says on page 8-2 Check with your local council service center for local policy on tour permits for den trips and outings.. I apologize if I mislead anyone with my previous post. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Depends on which leader, and on which course.

"Bob, set aside your 30 years of service and all of the training you have taken or taught. If someone throws the term "FCFY" at you, what comes to mind? Understand that I am answering your question as you asked it. What would I do? When I hear of a term or a recommended practice in scouting that I do not know I investigate it. I read, ask questions of those who use it, compare it to the methods of scouting, and if it is a recommended part of the program I use it and practice it until I get good at it. This is not to say that everbody must do the same, I am simply answering the question that was asked of me of what do I do.

While i am sure x-ray has the best of intentions in his lengthy article on scouting fraud his has a boat load of misinformation at his disposal. he speaks as though all of the 310 councils all have districts that rechatrter at the same time of year. That is not true. he suggests that every independent United Way Chapter all use the same tabulation methods, run their campaigns at the same time or base their distributions in the same way. That is also untrue. Scouting professional's incomes are bsaed on the size and capabilities of the local council and vary greatly though out the country. Scouts who stop atteneding meeings are still considered members until their paid membership runs out at the end of the charter year. They may return at anytime soto terminate their membership and not count them would not be in their best interest. Learning for Life runs the explorer program not the BSA. It is a separate corporation. Even those applications require a signature. If the way to spot a fake was a troop with 5 boys then there are posters here who lead fake troops. Why 5? Is a troop of 6 a valid unit, but 5 is not? Adullts are dual registered? Most adults who are active in scouting carry dual registrations by their own choice. professionals appear as leaders? I know a teriffic SE who had two boys in the pack of 125 where he was the cubmaster. Are professionals not allowed to enjoy scouting with their sons? Leaders never attend Roundtable? That would meen in our council that over half of all units did not exist. and I know that's not true. Units not visible at district events. My sons troop has over 50 scouts and they have attended 1 district or council event in 5 years. Do they not really exist? Sorry x-ray, you obviously feel you have a bone to pick with the BSA but you have so many 'facts' that are just plain incorrect they cannot possiblly lead to an accurate conclusion.

"So I feel it is how this idea is handled, if the SM gets up and dictates to the troop that all boys will be first class in one year in this troop the ones who do not make it will feel like a failure and drop out, that is not what scouting is all about." While I realize there are leaders out there who do that, that sort of behavior is unrelated to the leadership skills of scouting. "On the other hand if we tell the boys the ultimate goal is to provide them with the opportunities to advance in their first year as far as they can, up to first class then those who only make it to 2nd class will still feel they accomplished something positive. Ltes see how the BSA talks about it in the Boy Scout Handbook, page 2, " Let a First Class Scout tell you about his lates trip: I ahve been a scout for almost a year, and I have been on plenty of hikes and campouts." Page 14 "Though you can advance at your own pace, active scouts usually earn First Class within a year of joining the troop." Scoutmasters Handbook page 117 " Just as advancment helps unite the other 7 methods of scouting, completing requirements and moving upward in rank are natural outcomes of a troops regular activities.The more interesting the program offered by the troop, the better its record of advancement. Page 15 (highlighted inset) First Class Emphasis (Please read so as to save on my keyboard time) (This message has been edited by Bob White)

but, couldn't that be said of all scout advancement? How does that get a leader any closer to using the program correctly? In Scout leader specific training we actually tell them how to do the program, and yet some scouters after years of unit experience, or even after giving service as a commissioner and trainer still do not use the program. I am unconvinced that one well shaped sentence is going to make a difference. We need to select leaders who 'want' to do the scouting program. Look at units that use the NSP and 1st Class Emphasis and compare them to units that do no. I believe you will find as I have that the units using these tools are not the one contributing to the membership loss. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

According to the form, anytime you meet anywhere other than your normal meeting place you must file a tour permit.

I would ask why it has to be explainable in one sentence. Why can't it just be explained? Not evrything fits into neat one sentence packages. Remeber that first year retention is only 1/3 of the problem. Webelos I to Webelos II transition and age 16 are the other two. Even is more leaders used the New Scout Patrol and the 1st Class Emphasis program the membership dyke would still be leaking, it just wouldn't leak as fast and that in itself is a good thing. I do not see how the membership loss proves that First Class Emphasis isn't working. In units that use it I see far better retention numbers. The fact that no enough leaders use it or use it incorrectly speaks more to a problem with quality leadership selection and quality leadership training at the local level.

As long as the scout did not have a patrol responsibility at the time, and as long as I was not already working with another scout, I would happily sit down with him. If that was not possible i would set a time with him when we could sit down.

"I've got two minor nits and one major. First, your statement says "the troop's adult leadership". Where's the boy-run or boy-led in this?" You need patience, the boy run part is coming but these are brand New Scouts. You cannot expect new scoputs to just crossover from 4 years of cubbing and begin to self-govern themselves in a program they do not even know yet. That is why there is a New Scout Patrol. The NSP and the 1st Class Emphasis program work hand in glove to get the scouts the basic skills and to orient them into a boy run program the first year. We back off on the two adult den leaders and have one Assistant Scoutmaster, we take the Den Chief who worked with the adult Den leader and replace him with a Troop Guide who works with the Patrol Leader. We have each scout be Patrol leader for a month and attend a PLC with the Guide to learn how a troop government functions and so that when their first patrol election comes around they have had a chance to see each other in the role and actually have some information to base a leadership selection on. Remeber youth leadership is an ongoing process and different scouts will be in different stages of development during any given time. This is a new scout's first year let's not expect them to be able to self-govern until after they have had a chance to learn how. " Second, your statement says "will allow" which, while it is exactly the right sentiment, is not how it is usually interpreted." The BSA can only control how the message is sent, do not expect them to be able to control how it is recieved or interpreted. There are far to many variables that come into play. " "Will allow" is correct in that the opportunities need to be there but, and here's where most problems come in, it has to be up to the boy to decide to take advantage of the opportunity." I whole heartedly disagree. It is up to the trained leader to present the program in a way that motivates the scout to participate and through participation fulfills advancement requirements. "Instead, FCFY/FCE gets interpreted as "we need to get everyone to First Class in the first year" which leads to pushing the boys to advance (advancement mills, etc.). Again do not assume that everyone misinterprets the information, manydo not. Some understand it and just choose to ignore it,. Some understand it but disagree and so they change it. Some do not understand it at so do not try to learn it. Not everyone who doesn't use the program incorrectly simply interpreted it wrong. "The major problem I have with it is that it places too much emphasis on one of the eight Methods at the expense of the others. Advancement is only one of and not the only (or even most important) Method." There is no one method that is more or less important than another. Consider a stool with three legs. Which leg is the most important one? No matter which leg you remove the stool will fall over. The methods of scouting are no different.

It's possible that the Advancement chair never learned the right way and is doing things wrong simple because that was how the person before him did it. rather than asking him to b removed (although it may eventually comt to that) how about getting him to agree to getting trained. A life Board should take about 15 or 20 minutes certainly not two hours. There are alot of things about his job that he probaly will be shocked by when he learns the right way to do things.

I think you point out again that the problem is in the way some leader ignore or misuse the program. Nowhere does the BSa teach to rush scouts through the ranks without actually learning and displaying skills. The leaders who sign the books without properly teaching or testing are to blame not the program. If you look at the units with the best retention you will see units with active frst year program where scouts are advancing. look at units that are shrinking and you will not find that kind of program. The purpose for First Class Emphasis is to focus leaders in the right place. You cannot be a good scout without basic scouting skills to build on. But you can be a good scout without ever achieving the Eagle rank. The 'emphasis' on advancement is First Class, without it most boys will quit (the cause of 1/3 of our membership problems) our current. You cannot teach scouting to students who have quit the first year. You are correct that the scouts need to learn the difference between Cubs and Scouts and get comfortablew in their new role. That is what the New Scout Patrol does and yet some leaders refuse to do that either. The tool box is in each persons hands, the all the tools needed are provided, the problem is that not everyone wants to use them.

I pointed no fingers Terry, I was being criticized for not having posted to the thread, so I posted that I have said nothing but positive things about OGE in the past, and have no intention of changing my opinion now. I would appreciate an opportunity to discuss this with you offline at any time.

NOVPR unless you are a voting member of the district committee it is unlikely that you would have been aware of the election. As a registered corporation your district and council are required to hold annual elections. They have soecific steps that must be followed in order to be in line with their by-laws and charter agreement. Ask your District Executive about this process and see what you find out. Ask for the time and place of the election and for names of the voting members who were present. It is unlikely that the process was skipped especially for such a prolonged period.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It takes two people to allow multitasking to happen. The person who assums the mutiple responsibility and the chairman that allows it to happen. Good selection and recuitment takes time and when a volunteer offers to take a part of the load it is often too easy for a comittee chair to say yes without seriously looking at what load the volunteer already has. We would be better of to say "not now you have enough on your hands, but if you ever complete that responsibility come back and see me." Some jobs work well muti tasking, Unit commissioning and Rountable staff, RT staff or Unit Commissioning and Training. But Too often we allow ourselves to say yes more often than we should and it affects performance, leads to burn-out both in and out of scouts, as well as a hectic personal calendar.

I have never said an unkind word about OGE. My posts have been complimentary of him as a scouter, and as a moderator. I see no reason to retract any of those things now. As uncharacteristic as his insults to me were they were still personal insults posted publicly. I think that some will understand that after these personal attacks I feel no obligation to heap further praise on him at this time. As always I wish him nothing but the best, and I am sorry he has chosen to handle his frustration in this way.

Eagle I think what national was trying to affect was the retention rate of new scouts that first year because they were experiencing huge membership losses and still are at three pivotal times in the scouting timeline. The results I think have been noticable for those who are aware of the 1st Class emphasis program and understand its use VS. its misuse. In fact we did a survey on this forum which showed that troops who did use the program had larger memberships in the troop and had higher retention rates after 1 year than the troops that did not. I think knowing the percentage of scouts who achieve 1-st class within the first 12 to 14 months is valuable comparison information when juxtaposed to the percentage of new scouts who are still active after one year. Comparing the two bits of data should tell you if you are getting the expected results. The problem again arises of determining who just says they use it, who uses it by name but not correctly, and who actually uses it. That is why the results are best measured on an individual unit basis then on a national level. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is no mandate to churn out 1st Class scouts. the mandate is to have a planned directed program that will make the first year active, interesting and rewarding so that we do not have the results that so many units are having who do not use the First Class Emphasis Program...boys leaving the program in less than a year. If we agree that the problem is that all leaders do not have the same ability or knowledge then rather than change the name or the program lets change the leaders, insist on more training in your community, make sure the training syllabii are followed, mentor a scout leader in the real BSA program. Improve your leadership selection process. Rather than lower the program lets raise the leadership.