Bob White

But le Voyageur 1) all COs should give serious consideration as to who they should select for unit leadership does the LDS Bishop who believes that God helps make this selection give less weight to the decision than the person who stands in front of a group of parents and says 'we need somebody to do this"? Think of how many leaders came to be due to the latter method. 2) few if any of the BSA safety training programs are held on a Sunday. The most important of all of them is a brouchure the can read anytime they choose to pick it up. 3) How will starting their own program change anyones behavior? No lives will be saved by such a move. They simply would no longer creat litigation and financial losses for the BSA and that's not what is important here. If you were to look at all the accidents in the BSA each year I would expect you would find them equally distributed among ages and religions. What they will no doubt share in most cases is that a person or persons ignored a safety rule. Sure accidents happen. I have been on three outings where scouts were injured. In two cases the scouts ignored safet rules or warnings and the third case was a matter of wrong place wrong time. 3 injuries in over 30 years, and hundreds of scouts, and yet not one was an LDS scout. We do great adventures, but we train before we go, we plan ahead, and we adhere to the rules. That's all it would have taken for that list to have been considerable shorter.

Concerned scouter, I take the loss of life very seriously. If you read through each of the accidents you listed and how to pick an overwhelming element from each one wwhat would your list look like? My list is consistantly showing, safety precautions not being followed, inappropriate activities, poor leadership judgment. Is that what your list looks like? What do you believe the solution is?

Youth leadership training begins long before JLT and incorporates all other Methods of the Boy Scout program. The problem isn't that the troop leaders want you to find a "better" training method, wwhat they want you to find is a "different" training method because they have not learned and do not use the BSA methods. Do not be their instrument to stray further from the program. Insist that the BSA methods are the "best" methods and that what is needed is for them to be learned and followed. I would be happy to help explain the training progression beginning with the patrol method, and using the other scouting methods as well as the actual training string starting with the "Introdiction to Leadership Conference". Please private message me if you would like more information. BW

You think that the BSA is hiding something because you doubt that they keep accident data based om religious practices. I don't think Sate Farm Insurance keeps accident data based on religion, what do you suppose they are trying to hide? I wonder if the BSA will have any of their stealth helicopters on static display at Jamboree?

While typologies might work well with some categories perhaps the complexity of human personalities does not lend itself well to such categorizing.

OOPS! Sorry, I meant to type PLC (Patrol Leaders Council). BW

How they work together is really dependent on the task at hand. Think of it as a tool box. As a woodworker I often use the same basic selection of tools on nearly every project I build, How much I use eac one varies with the specific piece I am working on.

Baden Powell wrote that scouting is delivered one boy at a time, becasue every scout is unique. In addition to that, children change as they grow. A scouts attitude, skills, and interests change as they grow and develop. If you know 100 different scouts then you probable know 100 different kinds of scout, providing you have taken the time to learn the needs and characteristics of each.

The differences in the programs do not include the skill, methods, or safety requirements. I sincerely doubt that calling New Scouts, Blazers is the cause of any of the accidents. Nor will calling Venture Patrols Varsity Teams instead. Accidents come from lack of training, lack of obedience to rules, and insufficient leadership. There is nothing in the program difference that you could logically tie to fatalities.

Signing off a requirement is not the final step no matter who signs it, even the SM. The BOR has had that authority for...nearly 30 years.

Just for clarification I believe you will find that the LDS church has the SECOND highest percentage of scoutin in the BSA. They have the highest percentage of Units, but the United Methodist Men's Club has the highest percentage of members in the BSA. if the cause of the number of THE injuries was based on the percentage of scouts served, then certaily we would have seen more UMMC scouts involved. My guess would be a combination of other factors. Including population in specific geographic areas, activity choices, qualifications of activity leaders, and proper preparation, as major factors.

I have no problem with saying that somethiong is not healthy and will not be available at camp. But that also opens a can of worms for all kinds of foods. My main concern is that we not lie to scouts to get them to do what we want.

Of course the scoutmaster was held responsible. He or she is the program leader. Are you saying that the CO selected an adult who wasn't smart enough to be aware of the inherent dangers of living outdoors in the winter to be their scout leader? The BSA handbook, the BSA Field Book, OKPIK training, Boys' Life, Scouting Magazine, Roundtables, The Guide to Safe Scouting, the Scoutmasters Handbook in addition to a mountain of locally available resources, all have information that would have prevented these injuries. However, the adult has to make the effort to gather the knowledge. Parents...if your child is being lead by someone who does not understand that you need to prepare BEFORE you go on an activity then take your child out of that unit or insist that a leader with some amount of common sense is selected for leadership. It's a dangerous world out there, it always has been. Scouting can teach your child how to be better prepared to avoid injuries and enjoy the adventure that surrounds them, BUT the unit leader has to have a brain. The BSA does not select unit leaders. The BSA does not perform lobotomies or transplants. The adult must come with their own cranial grey matter the BSA does not take away or insert the hardware they just provide additional data on request.

I learned a fun trick at PTC, if you have a stack of papers that you don't want folks to fool with...you take a mouse trap, drill a small hole in the base, pass a small wire through it and wire the trap in the cocked position. Then just put the armed trap on top of the stack of papers. Enough people will think it armed that they stay away. I bring his up because a long standing "trick" used by some managers is to suggest that a higher authority has made a rule when they really haven't. Often enough people will believe you that they will do as you say, never checking to see if the rule exists. It is unfortunate that a person or persons misrepresented the BSA in such a way in order to get a rule that they wanted imposed without having to take responsibility for their own decision.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Once youth participants have had the opportunity to answer it would be interesting to see how the adults would respond.

Based on a perfomance checklist used in a troop and shared on the forum I would be curious as to who is percieved as in charge of the patrol? The PLS, the SM, The SPL, the PL? I ask because it seems in many situations the PL is used a mouthpiece for other leaders to get their directives done within a patrol. So who should be determining patrol activity and operations?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not at all I absolutely would hope that all scouters whether volunteer or professional would act in accordance with not only yje values of the Scout Oath and Law but also with civil laws. The connection to be made betwenn this thread and the one you have referenced is the biblical quandry of, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Before we have anonymous volunteers raising the voices in disgust on the forum about professionals that did the wrong thing let's ask if we obey the laws ourselves. What was shown in the thread you mentioned was that while many scouters have no qualms with violating laws while avoiding apprehension or conviction (and doing so in full view of scouts) they explode in disgust when a professional scouter is caught. How convenient.

I am glad the scout was encouraged to appeal. That is the correct advise and the next step. It is not a rubber stamp for overturning the BOR. If they have done their revue correctly and can show that the reason has to do with a specific requirement or requirements then their decision will be upheld. The BOR's job is not to satisfy the opinion of the SM or to make parents happy. Their role is to make sure that the scout has met the requirements according to the BSA. As long as the dissenting members made their decisions based on the requirements the the system is working just fine. You did you job and now it passes on too others to do theirs. Scouting's systems are a microcosm of our society and its systems.

As the COR you are the head of the scouting department for any and all scout units in the charter organization. Do want you think needs to be done. If it is to re[lace the scoutmaster then do it. Sekect and register a new leader remove the cuirrent one with a thank you and get the program back on track. Your responsibility is to the scouts and the scouting program. I hope things improve quickly for you. Once things are back on track be sure to contact the boys who left and invite them back. BW

Please elaborate on #4 I am not sure what you mean.

Thank you.

The role of the PLC members is to represent the wants and needs of their patrols, and to plan and take responsibility for the various troop meeting elements and troop activities. The SPL selects selects the scouts for other troop positions and the PL selects those for patrol positions. You can find more related information in the Scoutmaster Handbook, The Patrol Leader Handbook, and The Senior Patrol Leader Handbook.

The decision of the board must be unanimous. In either case you mentioned did anyone on the board make a dissenting vote based on their belief that the scout had not met the requirements? If not, then they are the only ones that can be held responsible. How can you hold the SM or previous boards acountable for passing a scout who was not qualified if the board you sat on did as well? It only takes 1 dissenting vote. As far as deal killers. If you can show that the behavior left a requirement open then the scout has not completed the advancement.

Most of the most delicate information is stored on the BSA national data base with restricted access. You are statistically more likely to have the information stolen by cousin ernie then from your scouting records. I think most any unit would rather risk losing a good volunteer than endangering the safety of the scouts.

And the Better Business Bureau released a report showing that the vast majority of identity theft will come from an aquaintance steling from your own home. That the next largest segement of identity theft crime will come from a stranger robbing your home or person. The next largest comes accisental loss o the part of the victim and finally the smallest segment of identity theft comes from technology theft. I am not saying you cannot have your reservations, but that there are far greater risks to you than a scout application. You are asking for the opportunity to work at close quarters in relative remoteness with other peoples children, where who you are and what can be your expectation of proper behavior is of great importance to the other parents, the Chartering organization the council and the BSA. If you do not want to share your pesonal information you do not have to, and you do not have to be allowed access to the scouts. Everyone involved has a responsibility to take every possible step to insure the safety of the scouts. To take on an adult volunteer who is unwilling to give the requested information is too high a risk for any unit. By the way not all of the infor is for background checks (1,4,6, and 7 are and must be provided) 2- is beacuse adults over 40 have a different level of health risks statistically and so are subject to differnt health protocols in the BSA. 3- is not required but is helpful for the locla and national BSA to track program statistics. 5- is not required but helps units and council to find new resources that might be used to improve the program foir the scouts. Again, It is your choice, you do not have to help provide information to help secure the safety of others in the program, but then the program does not have to allow you the priviledge of membership.