Bob White

Merit badges are designed for individual testing. The final decision is up to the merit badge counselor who is the sole authority on the approval of each requirement of a merit badge. As a cooking MB counselor I would not accept two scouts doing one meal, the requirement wants a scout to be able to do the meal himself.

Since dictatorship and democracy are types of governments, and the BSA, is not it would be incorrect to use either label. However if one were dead set on tagging the BSA with a type of governemntal label it would be closer to....a republic, since it uses representives to speak for the membership. It cannot be a dictatorsip since there is not one person in ultimate control. it is not a democracy since every decision is not made by a majority vote of all members. So since it uses independent committees making recommendations to a representative executive board for approval it ios most closely akin to a republic. So the original question is flawed. Skewed primarily by personal predjudice since its choices for response was restricted to only two of multiple available answers. Would you allow a person to stand in your living room and insult your wife for as long as they wanted? Is their presence in your home protected by their first amendment rights?

If you are lucky and have a well stocked army/navy surplus store nearby (or can find one on the internet) they used to make a larget tent shaped netting that tied up inside the tent. I always brought a few pieces of 1" PVC pipe that I lashed to my cot to support the rectangular netting. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The decision is the Scoutmaster's but I would certainly accept it. BW

Here are some facts: The Troop operates by a republic style of government, where decisions are made by elected officials, just as with our local, state and federal governments. A troop, as Baden-Powell said is a not divided into patrols, but that patrols gather to form a troop. (just as independent states gathered to form our nation, without abandoning their independence.) Patrols are lead by their elected Patrol leader and not by an adult or the SPL. Just as states are lead by their Govenors and not by any other elected or selected power. The SPL is elected by the troop to oversee the meeting of the PLC. Thers is nothing in any reference of the BSA that puts the SPL in charge of the patrol leaders. The PLC consists only of elected officals with the exception of the Troop Guide who is there to help train and guide the junior member of the New Scout Patrol. The Definition of a Senate is an assembly or council usually possessing high deliberative and legislative functions: The PLC is a a Senate. The SPL is the elected troop officer and selects all other troop leadership position, just as the PL is the elected Patrol officer and so he selects all other Patrol officers. Just as the elected President selects his cabinet who like the troop selected officers have no voting power in the PLC because they are not elected reprtesentatives. How this helps to explain things more clearly. footnote: When I was 12 I was selected by my teachers for a youth government day in my town. For one week and for one city council meeting a youth was paired with a city official to run the government. As it turned out the majority of us were scouts. The mayor commented on how impressed everyone was with our understanding of civics and committees and that we seemed very comfortable during our roles in the council meeting. He asked what we thought helped us the most at school. One of the youth members stood and said "actually I think its because most of us are Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. The audience applauded wildly. One of my favorite childhood memories.

The United States or America is not a democracy, it is a republic. I refer you to the Pledge of Allegiance, 3rd stanza "and to the Republic for which it stands". A republic being a form of government where powers of governance are given to elected representatives. Our government however acts as a democracy, where in every represzentative has a vote and the majority rules. But the United states as an entity is a republic. Thanks you's go to Mrs. Martin, 4th grade Social Studies. The BSA does not say you cannot have free speech nor does it hinder it. It simply says that you are not guarnteed membership in a private organization. Just as someone cannot come in your home and say anything they want about your family and expect to be allowed to stay. They are welcome to stand on the street and shout it, but their freedom of speech does not overrule your freedom of association, to choose who can be in your private home, or in the case of the BSA, their private organization. This is the specific rule of law that was cintested in the Dale vs the BSA Supreme Court ruling, which you might recall was decided in favor of the BSA. Thank you Mr. Shipley 7th Grade Civics.

Apples to oranges Backpacker. This thread is asking how the BSA is structured. The other thread was specifically discussing troop operation and how it helps to teach citizenship. They are totally differetnanimals. But I think you knew that.

As most here know I often provide manual and page references for most of the things I share. However my library is limited to that of a unit leader and trainer. There is nothing in the Council by laws necesarry for being a good volunteer. As you would know in you various roles in scouting there is one copy of that manual in each council kept at each Council service center. I invite you to contact your local scout executive if you doubt me or you can take jkhny's word and see by the stories he has shared that there are scouters who have been removed for just such a reason. You might ask jkhny if he has any reports of any courts reinstating these volunteers. Now to the original question. Is the BSA a democracy or a dictatorship. Well you might as well ask if it is a fishing boat or a Honda motor cylce. Since BSA is not a government it can not be labeled using governemntal styles. It's a non- profit Corporation and like others it is operated by a system of inter-dependent committees under the guidance of an elected executive board and a professional staff they select and hire.

Ed how can this surprise you? We have been over this before. Your first amendment rights to not guarantee you membership in a private organization, nor in someone elses home. If you visit my home and I don't like your behavior or your opinion I can throw you out. The BSA as a private organization is no different. You can say whatever you like, but the BSA does not have to let you say it as a registered scouter. Since you are an experienced unit leaer, Wood Badge trained Scouter, Unit Commissioner, and scout leader trainer I am surprised every time you say you don't know about this. jkhny You have a sliver of a each story. You know about one evennt and an eventual outcome and nothing in-between. Besides, each council is its own locally operated corporation. If the local scouting administration chooses to do this, and it violates no national policies, then they are free to do as they like. Your concern should be the delivery of scouting to the youth in your community. Consider leaving the backyard gossip to others.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not know what the curriculumm of the executive training institute was. The training and the manuals I gave you are directed to the topic. Your opinion of what should be and what really is the case are not the same. Read the Committee handbooks and you will see I have given ty=you correct information. I will agree the CR should not micro-manage. The rpogram is not designed for anyone to micro-manage. The question at hand was who had the authority to effect change. In the case of leader selection at the unit level The authority and the responsibilty rests with the CR.

You will not find a list, what you will find is that we are voluntary members of a private organization and can be removed by whomever owns the charter to which your membership is attached. As a unit volunteer you can be removed by the CO or the SE as nationals representative. As a district/council volunteer you can be removed by the SE as the council and national representative. There does not need to be a specific cause, it's a PRIVATE organization. If you continue to try and apply inappropriate laws to a private organization you will continue to frustrate yourself. Think of the BSA as a private residence, your house. Who must you let in, once in, who do you have to let stay? If you invited someone into your home and after awhile they began to complain and insult your family, would you have to allow them to stay or can you tell them to leave? The BSA is no different.

"That is black letter rule" I do not agree. The CR is the Head of the Scouting depdepartment for the CO, and the CO owns the unit. The CR is one of two signatures that sign ALL other leader applications. The other being the CC who is chosen by the CR, and in fact the CR can make him or herself the CC. We seem to be forgetting that the unit is a function of the CO just as a choir at at church. The scoutmaster however is not the choirmaster the CR is. Once established a committee can help to select a leader but the committee has no authority to approve any leader. If you look at the Troop Committee Guidebook, The Cub Scout Leader Book or attend New Leader Essentials you will find I am correct.

The unit is not the end of the chain it is the beginning, poor leadership selection doesn't begin at the Council level and trickle down, in starts at the unit and spreads. Most volunteers in scouting begin at the unit level. The solution is simple, if you are a CR then take a good look at the people leading the committee and unit, make sure they are making an effort to do their role correctly. Are they following the program? Are they attending trainings? Are they obeying policies? Is the unit setting and meeting good scouting goals? Are they getting along with each other? If not you need to, ask them to change. If they don't, then you need to select people to replace them. If you have a good chairman and program leader then use them to help you. But ultimately, the responsibility for good unit scouting is in the hands of the Charter Organization. If the Co is not willing to take that obligation seriously then there is nothing anyone else can do about it until that individual is out of the unit level. This has always been the structure of scouting. The problem isn't that it doesn't work, the problem is that many units do not take it seriously. Just think about the number of units that recruit by standing in front of a rom full of adults, many of them virtual strangers, and announcing "We need someone to be a (fill in the unit position of your choice). They show no regard for an individuals skills and abilities, no regard for a persons character or background. You wouldn't choose somebody to come into your home while you are on vacation and feed your fish without more information, but people will allow the folks who will mold their childrens values to be selected like that! When districts and coucils look to "experienced" leaders to serve units at the District/ council level and they don't look to dee if that person actually did their job correctly then they shoot themselves in the foot. Selecting trainers who didn't use the program, and commissioners who didt follow the program, is inane and yet it happens. The best way to avoid such deadwood is for the unit to stop picking it up to begin with. The people who will make good scout leaders are good people even before they get into the program. They are good with kids, happy, dependable, law abiding, reverent. Pick anyone else and you will get exactly who you pick.

With your vast scouting experience you must obvioulsy be aware that the BSA does not conduct the swimm tests, choose the activity, selects the run of river, makes sure the PFD is worn and fits properly, or selects responsible leaders. You also know who is responsible for all those things...The scout unit and specifically the scoutmaster. So why are you trying to say that the BSA was somehow responsible? When things go well in a unit it to the leaders credit, so when they go badly it is also to their discredit. What is so unfair about that?

The point being the SM is a counselor and not "incharge" of either the state or the country. Too many SMs look at a military model with people barking orders at each other. That's the wrong model. Scouting teaches particpating citizenship and the unit structure is one of the tools we have to help teach and explain to the scout his role in a community and in its governance. Do not be concerned that it doesn't make sense to you yet. The important thing is that you be willing to learn. Scouting has many layers that go much deeper than pitching a tent or playing basketball at ta troop meeting. There are real life skill sthat can be taught over the years, some in very subtle ways. With a curious mind much can be discovered.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am trying to figure out how a scout would get to First Class if troops weren't teaching some of those things? To try and write all that we do each year on nature and conservation would take several chapters. Again if you use the program you are teaching the information in the various scout handbooks. The further you stray from the BSA program the less of a 'Scouting' program you actual have.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have hung around scouting quite a while and have never seen a good person get their membership removed. I have seen 5 people removed I have been in the program even longer than Juris . Each was appropriate. Again you must remember this is a private organization which can choose its members at will. We are "volunteer leaders" in the BSA we are not the owners of the corporation or the program, those roles are held by the BSA and its leagal representatives, and by the IH and CR of the Charter Organizations. Do not think because you have a title that ends in "master" that you are in charge. That is not how the movement is organized. If an individualks behavior becomes a distraction to the programs purpose then it is logical that thy either change their behavi0oour or be removed so that the service to the youth can proceed unimpeded. Tenure is no excuse for bad attitude or disruptive behaviour. An old whiner is just as disruptive as a young whiner. This kind of thread is the scouting version of gossipping over the backyard fence. It is great for getting some disgruntled scouters too share their war whoops, but does nothing to serve the youth in scouting.

The most obvious is found in the Patrol Method. The troop is a republic like our own form of governemnt. It is not ruled by a majority vote and every person does not have a say in every decision. Instead, the community elects a representative to speak on their behalf and decisions are made by the vote of the representatives. Sometimes the vote goes your way sometimes it doesn't either way you are expected to follow and support the decision as a member of the community. If you want to effect change then you need to become more active to either affect the representative or to become a representative. Those who make no effort to give input willl forever be subject to the likes and dislike of those who do. Then as I explained before the troop is like the United States and the Patrols are independent but co-dependent States. Each soley goverend by their own elected officials yet dependent to a degree on the resources and support of the Federal Governmemnt. The Troop (fed. Gov.) is in return dependent on the cooperation and resources of each state. The SPL acts as the President and Vice president, the other troop officers are his cabinet. The Committee acts as the judicial system. The SM as a trusted Presidential advisor. Thers more but that is enough for now to get a discussion going. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mandatory training is not the answer, We are all familiar with at least a few people who have more than ample training to be able to follow the program and yet they choose not to. Selecting good adult volunteers from the outset is the key. What you need is to seek and find adults willing to learn and follow the program. Better to have an adult with with right attitude and witha thirst for learning, than a leader who attends training and then goes back to the boys and only follows what they want to. for the adult that wants to learn, the scouting training curriculum is outstanding, for volunteers who want to do things their own way... no amount of training will help.

If this was not in your council, and you heard it third party, (in other words somebody who heard about it-told somebody else-who told you) then how do you know for sure that you have any real facts at all? You're concerned it shouldn't happen AGAIN, heck you can't really be sure it happened this time. Can volunteers who gripe to much be removed by the BSA, absolutely, and thank goodness to in most cases. As you have seen on this forum there are a lot of folks who know very little about scouting at any level either by inexperience or by choice. If you get somebody with a lot of opinion and very little knowledge getting in the way of delivering the program then they need to be removed. It is no different then what the units are directed to do with boys who continually interfere with a unit program being delivered or who create a safety hazard to themselves or others. Either they agree to change or the unit can remove them from the roster. bekieve me as often as you felt that you wanted to just get rid of a professional scouter, there have been volunteers who have given them ample reason to feel the same way toward us. Removing volunteers does not not happen anywhere near as often as you might think, and not nearly as often as it could. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Backpacker, You appear to have chosen to combine to separate comments on two unrelated comments. During a discussion on the bor system I pointed out that the appeals board is not unlike the appealate system of our courts. You chose to turn the discussion from the topic at hand and chase after my reference to the review process of the advancement program being similar to elements of our own society, trying to turn it to a discussion on the values of the program saying "Scouting is supposed to instill values in the youth that far exceed our current culture/society." I do not know anywhere where the BSA makes such a claim. I pointed out that the BSA is not designed to instill values that exceed our culture but on traditional values that our culture was built on. The systems we use for troop operations are modeled after various aspects of our government branches. Our values are modeled after traditional family values. You would be in error to try and combine these separate intentions. I hope you will allow the thread to continue on its original topic. Thanks BW

What do you think is a Cub Scout's greatest priority in deciding to continue into Boy Scouts, and who is responsible for that element?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"the current pulled it off"? An importand safety procedure is not only to wear the PFD but to wear the correct size and have it fitted properly. Another very tragic incident that was probably avoidable.

Charter organization Representative would be a District and council committee member and would be chosen from the church. But that would be the only position that I know of That would be a Distict/Council position not chosen by a nominating committee, the dist. chair, dist/council. Commissioner. or voted in by the dist. committee.

If the adult leaders are bad it would seem to be the responsibility of the person or persons who selected them. Do not expect to be able to measure the scouts with the same ruler you use for an adult. That to me would seem quite inequitable.