Bob White

The difference PS is accusing someone of public crime or a private offense. If you are a member of our bridge club and the rest of us are tired of you always being late or worse yet making bad coffee, we can kick you out, we don't have to prove to a court that you make bad coffee because we are not accusing you of a crime. And if you want to take us to court we will tell the jusge that we are a private group and you make lousy coffee. The judge will then tell you he has no juristicttion over a private organizations freedom of association, so everyone go home. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal condition, being removed from a private organization is not. If a leader wants to take the BSA to court over losing their membership as Dale it they will find that it is the BSA who is protected by 'innocent until proven guilty' not the member. It's been tried and the Supreme Court says the BSAcan determine membership at will. I do not understand the difficulty in understanding this.

Kleenex has a tradmark on their name are they the only tissue company that exists? Pepsi has a trademark on their name, are they the only soda that exists. My company has it's name trademadked and there are at least 16 competitord in town. Most with trademarked names. To say that by legally protecting a company's name that they are a monopoly just has no validity. Innocent till proven guilty is a protection against prosecution by the government. It is unrelated to a private organization saying that you are annoying and then revoking your membership. Since the membership was not a right, revoking it is not violation of a right. It's just that simple.

No one said if you discovered wrong doing not to report it to the proper authorities. What was said is once it is discovered there is no need for adult leaders to goosip and spread rumors, or to beat our chests and whail about "what about our boys?". The fact is the unit program is for the most part a reflection of the abilities of the unit leaders and the quality of your next meeting is unrelated to an SE fabricating membership, or revoking another gossips BSA membership. The fact is that the original poster admitted that this was third hand stories from outside his own council that he was sharing. What if...during the retelling key facts were lost or altered, what if it never even happened this way at all, what if we all did our own jobs and didn't gossip about other councils and other peoples business? Would that be seen by many as an improvement? I'll bet it would.

Assist in planning and leading a minimum of 2 Troop meetings each month for the New Scout patrol based on advancement needs for Tenderfoot to First Class ranks. Camp, cook, and eat, with the new Scout patrols for the first 5 campouts of their first year. Attend A PLC each month with the temporary New Scout Patrol Leader and help guide him in his repesentation of the patrol. Set the example of the characteristics of the scout Oath and Law in all dealings with the New Scouts. Be prepared to teach any of the basic scouting skills required for Tenderfoot to First Class. Assist each New Scout Patrol Leader in learning the basics of the 4 styles of leadership used in scouting. Hope this helps. BW

John the requirement was for a trail meal, everything you listed for your meal can be obtained as a freeze dried product that would stay fresh longer, take up less room in the pack, require smaller cooking containers, and the food itself weighs less. All these elements make freeze dried a better choice on the trail.

Gardner,m Your last post seems perfectly reasonable to me. I agre with you that the requirement itself goes against everything I ahve learned abiout trail cooking and small stove meals. The #I thing that a back pack stove is good for is boiling water. I would keep that in mind in meeting the requirement. Nowhere does it say that the stove cannot be used for that purpose. If I hav=d to do a meal for a 6 or 8 member patrol using a back pack stove I would select some fresh fruit, and a compliment of freeze-dried products and reconstitute them with them boiling water from the stove. -Balanced meal -prepared using the Stove -appropriate for the trail -patrol fed *Requirement met.

We have mechanisms in place now that work when used. If some people will not follow them then what is gained by changing the mechanisms? Will a new working mechanism that still isn't followed be any improvement? Will a method that won't work but will be followed fix anything at all? The solution is not a different method, The methods aren't the problem. The solution is in the attitude and quality of the leaders. If your baseball team can't win a game, changing the game will not make them better baseball players. You either need to improve the players you have, or you have to get players of greater abilities.

"How many activities, and what kind, do you do with the other Dens of the same rank?" John I can think of very few. Pack meetings, family camp and Day camp. The whole idea is that snall group activity at this age is better. There is no point in dividing dens only to bring them together frequently for combined activities. Keep them separate except for pack activities.

"And I'll ask again "Which rights aren't in place to protect me Which ones are to protect people from me?" Well, off hand, I would have to say that ammendments 10, 13, 19, and 26 probably have little or nothing to do with protecting 'you' specifically. As far as what ones protect people from you...the freedom of association comes to mind rather quickly.

Not all rights are the same, as proof I offer the Bill of Rights which has 10 distinctly different rights in its text. Followed by the Ammendments which are specifically different rights. Not everyone has the same rights. A public facility for instance does not have the freedom of association hence it is "public" and can be used by anyone who uses it lawfully. Private organizations, and private citizens, DO have the freedom of association. They can legally choose, at will, who they want to associate with and be associated with them. An example of the freedom of association at work. A public facility cannot refuse to employ a person for being Taoist. That would be illegal. The Presbyterian Church however can say that to be employed by the church you have to be Presbyterian. That is not illegal. Why? because the Presbyterian Church is a private organization and is protected by the freedom of association, as is the BSA. Is a Presbyterian minister protected by the First Ammendment rights to free speech? Absolutely. He can say whatever he wants. But if what he says conflicts with the Presbyterian faith, he can be removed. Has his rights been violated? Not at all, he can still say whatever he wants, he just can't say it as a representaive of the Presbyterian clergy. The Church excercised their freedom of association to have an organization of individuals with shared opinions and values. The BSA is exactly the same in its protection by the law. You can always say whatever you want, There is no right however that guarantees you the ability to say it as a member of ANY private organization. If you really believe that this isn't so then you will need to explain the Supreme Court ruling in Dale VS. BSA. What is it you think they determined, and on what constitutional grounds do you believe they based their decision?

8 of 10 Boy Scouts came to the program through cubbing! How in the world could it be bad?

If I understand what accu is saying then I disagree. It iss not for the p[arents to decide who the dens or the denleaders will be. It is the Responsibility of the CR, CC, and CM, to select and approve den leadership. All the parents need to know is what was decided and give them a short period of time to register any concerns, then put the plan in action. It is not "your Den" it is the pack's. Do not think that as a den leader you can do whatever they want. Saying "I will take these boys now you step up and pick up your end" is not the scouting way to approach this or any situation requiring group cooperation. Everyone needs to do their role in making this as quick and smooth a transition as possible.

While a three year committment is often sought, ALL BSA memberships are on an annual basis. Most Councils have as a condition of their corporation bylaws the requirement for annual election of officers as described previously. So even though it may appear as a three year term it is in actuallity 3 consecutive 1-year terms, which can be interrupted if the vote of the committee does not support the continuation of that person in office.

As it turns out there are three major leaks. Two are in the Cubscout potion of the pipe works and one in the Boy Scout. We lose a tremendoud number of Tigers the first year. Largely because these are the least organized dens and least trained leaders. The next big loss is during 2nd year Webelos. This is due to a number of factors, anxiety over moving to a new program, boredom with cubbing, Sewns running out of program from rushing things first year are large contributors. But we also have a huge loss during firt year of Boy Scouting, mostly in units that do not follow the three tier program and lack of a Fisrt Class emphasis program. Fixing one leak will not solve the problem. Stronger unit programs, a closer adherence to the BSA scouting program, and better prepared leadership are the most direct solutions.

Sorry FGoodwin but your information on district/council committee selection is incorrect. The DE and the sitting District Chairman select the nominating committee. The Nominating commitee offers a slate consistiting of a recommended District Chair and District Members at Large who are elected and approved by the voting members of the District or council committee (the current members at large and Charter Organization Representatives). The District Chairman then selects his own cabinet of committee chairs. They are non-voting members of the District. Each committee chair is free to select his or her own committee members (also non-voting). The Selection committee also gives a recommendation for District Commissioner to the Council Commissioner for approval. The Disrtict Commissioner selects and approves all commissioner positions in the District. The District professional, District Chairman, and Distrcit Commissioner form the "Key 3", the executive board of the District.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As you say ed it is "one" of our rights. There are many others, not all of which are there to protect 'you'. Some rights are there to protect others from you. Is it your suggestion we abolish the rights of others? Do we simply abandon the freedom of association? Or does the BSA not get to use it because you are a member and you think your rights over-rule all others? What do we do with the rights of private organizations Ed?

The place to start getting answers is with the BSA. Contact your local District Chairman and find out when you can take New Leader Essentials and Cub Den Leader Specific Training. You also need some resources at hand. The Cub Scout Leader Book, Program Helps, and The How To Book, are a must for every den, ask your pack to purchase them for you. Your district hosts a monthly program helps meeting called Roundtable. It takes up 90 minutes of your time each month but can be invaluable to a good program. As far as dividing the Den it has to be done. But selecting and training the two additional leaders for it is not for you to worry about. That is the Pack Committee chairman and Cubmasters responsibility. You just need to convince them that you are serious about not trying to lead a den of 16, it is not the right way to deliver cubbing. I disagree strongly about involving the cubs in the decision of dividing the den. You have to consider the abilities and nature of boys this age. This is not a process they are ready for, nor should they be put into the position of creating conflicts within their friendships by seemingly picking sides. While a Boy Scout is more mature and better suited to determine their patrols that is not am appropriate process to use for a cub aged group. This is an adult process to be determined by the Den Leaders with input from the parents. Before you start relying on the advice of strangers you owe it to yourself and the Den to first go learn the BSA program from BSA resources. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But if the quality of your unit program is what you make of it (as you say Kudu), then isn't the quality of every unit dependent on what it's leaders make of it? Or is your unit unique from all others in this way?

No one ever said membership should be revoked if you do not agree 100%. What was said id if your behavior interferes with the delivery of the program that the your membership can be revoked. There are other conditions as well such as policies violations etc. But what is the point of being a member of an organization just to ridicule it. I'm glad the BSa has the freedom to remove any leader they widh . I am glad they use it sparingly. But I wish they used it a little more often. My preceeding post was to read..."No, it's just that ultimately the quality of the program is dependent on the deliver at the unit level by unit volunteers. If you really believe the quality of the program is that bad it is your own fault." And was in response to kudu's 2 previous posts. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

John training takes about 4.5 hours. Its got to happen if you are truly interested in giving the boys a good scouting experience

No its just that ultimately the quality of the program is dependent on the deliver at the unit level by unit volumyeers. IOf you really believe the quality of the program is that bad it is your own fault.

And yet you are a program leader and an instructor in a program you neither understand or respect. Go figure.

So what if your charter comes back with the names of boys you have never seen? People make mistakes. That isn't enough to prove wrong doing by the SE, nor does it have any effect on your next scout meeting. It could simply be data entry error. You inform the council registrar of the errors and move on. You are not required serve scouts who are not in your unit. What is your problem in this instance? Why is every problem a conspiracy, it was most likely just a clerical error. Didn't anyone ever read you the story of Chicken Little? And what the heck does a roster error have to do with the BSA being a dictatorship or a democracy? It would be helpful if you stuck to your own thread topic.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"And Bob - a question - what do you do when your District Executive is lying about membership numbers? He's overstating enrollments by 25% over "official" numbers and almost 50% over actual current enrollments. The Scout Executive doesn't want to hear this because then he would lose a Quality District and then his Quality Council. He needs that count to meet HIS "goals." The hand-picked Executive Board claims tht they will "study" the issue but months later a "Committee" has yet to be formed and no action taken. Are we supposed to ignore all this? In my position as a unit leader and a Rountdable staff member I do nothing. It is not my area of responsibility, I do not have all the facts, and I am aware of the tremendous amount of misinformation and gossip spread by some volunteers who need to distract people from seeing their own shortcomings by spreading gossip or complaints about others. So unless it affects my next unit meeting I let the people aho are responsible for the affedted area do their job. If I should come in contact with a memeber of the executive board as I do from time to time I will ask them for a private conversation for a few minutes, tell them of some of the concerns I have been hearing and ask him if he could explain the situtaion to me. "And the procedures Bob cites refer to a UNIT's ability to remove a UNIT leader - with the approval of its chartering organization." And what do you suppose gives them the ability to do that? It is because they hold the charter. Who holds the charter for the councils? The BSA. It is the same thing.

Actually, as long as you are standing on public grounds (or your private ones) you can yell your low opinion of the BSA for as long as you like, that is your constitutionally protected right. But you are not the only one with rights. The BSA has rights too, as identified by the U.S. Supreme Court. It is called the right to association and it is the same right that allows you to socialize with whom you please. It is a protection for private organizations as well as for private citizens. In Dale vs BSA the Supreme Court upheld the BSA's right to determine its membership at will. They have the right to associate with like minded individuals. As a private organization that is their constitionally protected right. You do not have to be a member of the BSA to disagree with them or to stand on the street and yell your opinion. So when you do, and they revoke your membership, they have not interferred with your freedom of speech...they have excercised their right to association. I suggest if you have any doubts about this you research the many internet sites on the topic of freedom of association. I mistakenly called it the freedom of free association in the last post which we all know is only for psychiatrists. Just because a bad question was asked I am under no obligation to give a bad answer. I will stand by what I posted. Thank you though for the opportunity to reconsider my responses. People can sometimes get so caught up with just wanting to disagree with the other person they forget to just look at the quality of our own comments as well as at the validity of other's posts. Your challenge gave me the opportunity to revist the entire thread, and I am satisfied that I answered honestly and correctly based on known facts.