Bob White

In the arly days just like today, Young people scout age want to feel they belong and are accepted in a group. It is a natural progression in the growth and maturing cycle of humans. Many boys will naturally seek group identity whether it is gang colors, a football team uniform wearing the cap of their favorite ball club, or a scout uniform. Identifying yourself to a social group is a normal and healthy part of development. There is nothing mystical about why the BSA uses uniforming. What is a mystery is the inability of some sadults to understand and use this method in a positive way.

Scouts are not required to wear uniforms all the time. I fear my example was a stretch for some posters. The point is that removing an element would make it something different than what it is it would no longer be Boy Scouts. Now for some units removeing some of the methods would have no noticable effect because they don't use them anyway. What do those units have in common, loss of scouts, poor growth, no scouting program. Without the unoform some units would go from doing stuff in a scout uniform to just ...doing stuff and they would loose all identification with the BSA. You know on second thaought, that might not be so bad.

Sea Scouts wear U.S.Navy work blues, work tans, and dress whites and dress blues (depending on whether you are a youth or adult member).. The placards worn on the adult dress whites are dark navy blue with the Sea Scout emblem and markings identifying the adult leadership position.

What would happen if fish din't have gills? Who can be sure since all fish we see have gills. And having gills is one of the elements that make them a fish. Uniformoing is an element of scouting, to best de;iver a BSA scouting program units use the uniform method. Why would you purposely try not to deliver the best program you could? Wearing a uniform is one the elements that makes them scouts.

The BSA changes as scouts and resources change, not because it was broken and needs to be fixed, it adapts to always stay as good as it is. We had a lengthy thread about that 50% comment Ed I'm surprised you don't recall it. Some kids are over-scheduled becasue they are searching for a program that fulfills their needs, a purpose that the BSA is specifically designed to do when delivered well. If you lose scouts to other stuff it's because they found what they needed elesewhere, more fun, more adventure, more challenge, more friends. If kids have to go outside of scouting to find those things then you are doing it wrong.

I do not know of an online source but there is a video available you can all watch together that explains each job. Ask you local scout professional for it.

"But you don't think the program is ever at fault. You have expressed across many threads the problem is always the volunteer leaders. Never the program or the BSA in general. Not very realistic." Of all people to take a stance like that Ed, why you? I don't hink the program ia at fault because I've been a troop and pack leader for quite a while and I had one bad year, my first. Then I learned the program and it worked, it worked everytime, it never stopped working. I taught others how it worked and the ones that chose to follow it had the same results I had. So its not me it's the program. Look at how often Eamonn and I are on exactly the same strategy on our replies, it's because we both know, understand and use the scouting methods, We are not the only ones. I have never been in a crowd of scouters so far removed from the actual program as the things I read from you and a number of other non-believers on this forum. It's not just Eamonn, F-scouter gets it, CNY gets it, OGE gets it. It's not me they are agreeing with, it's the scouting program. I don't think the scouting program is wrong because I see it work. Then I see leaders who bad mouth it, who want to change it, want to pick and choose what methods to support, and in their wake they leave FORMER scouts, boys who quit to soon. I don't blame all leaders. I balame the ones who never learned or who learned but never followed. They keep youth out of scouting, they injure youth, they discourage good volunteers. You yourself wrote that you expect to lose 50% of your new scouts each year. And look what happpened to "your troop". You made good on your prediction. When you don't follow the program kids leave. Oh you can blame whatever outside activity you want, but the bottom line is, if the troop program was better than what they left to go do, they would never have left. I make no apologies for folowing the scouting program, I agreed to be a scout leader, I promised to follow the program, and I kept my promise. Complain all you want you don't hurt me and you don't hurt the scouts I serve...this year. But down the road the scouts who used to be in "Your Troop" and troops like it, will discourage their children and their grandchildren because they will always remember why they QUIT the scouting program. Don't try to scold me for following the scouting program Ed, that's what we are supposed to be doing.

How about creating a position of Loss Prevention Chairman. Put him in charge of safety. Arm him with the G2SS, send him to BALOO, have him learn about the BSA accident insurance coverage and explain it to the parents, have him organize the Youth Protection training for the youth and the adults, have him help find presenters on fire safety, woods tools, first aid, home safety.

If the problem with the lack of volunteers was one of culture, then why do some units always seem to have an abundance of adult volunteers and some never have near enough? As a cubmaster we grew rapidly from a pack of barely thirty to just shy of 10O. we had nearly 40 trained and uniformed leaders and committee members. Yet a pack just a few blocks away with 40 cubs never had enough adults for every den and the leaders doubled on committee. There was no demographic difference between us. The difference was method of selecting leaders. They begged gatherings of parents for help. We invited individuals to come play with us. I doubt the problem is any different in most communities. The problem is not with people not wanting to help. The key is people want to feel wanted. Don't ask for help, and certainly don't beg for warm bodies, invite individuals. There is a very helpful resource offered for free by your local scout service center that teaches you how to select QUALITY leaders. I have never seen a unit use it and not succeed in recruiting the help they wanted.

"And it says that in what BSA publication on what page?" I am so glad that you asked that question. The Boy Scout Handbook, pages 12-13, and 23. The Scoutmaster Handbook page 9, 37,45,54,62. Scoutmaster Job Specific Training section III "Uniforming", The BSA Insignia Guide page 1 second column first paragraph under the heading personal Committmemnt. Just for starters. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

The reponsibilities of a scouting professional are totally different with those of a volunteer leader. Those of us who actually work with the youth, and who work to develop other leaders have accepted an obligation to help develop a scout's moral and ethical decision making that will affect every aspect of their adult life. It is disappointing to think that anyone wouldn't take that responsibility very seriously. That doesn't mean it can't be fun to do. But a scoutleader has a huge effect on a scout, who could take that lightly and still be an effective leader?

When you say "we do the best we can" just which 'We" do you refer to. The adult leaders who make the effort to follow the program as best they can, or the adults who make the decision not to follow the program. When you say "we" who exactly do you mean? I would agree that the former group is doing the best they can and it shows in the units they serve. But the latter group....you cannot convince me that they do their "best". No, they do what suits them, and it shows in the unit they are supposaed to be serving. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't understand your problem BP no sense of humor maybe? Your original post wasn't particularly funny, nor was your last. nor for that matter any inbetween. But who said you had to be funny? All I did was follow the converstaion laid out by the posts prior to mine. I see no evidence that my view on the topic is any less germain than yours. I made no mention of anyone specific. Now if you are done with me perhaps you could return to the topic.

A sign that used to hang over the entrance of our Roundtables said... "Those who say it can't be done should at least stay out the way of those who are doing it!" I'm not saying that the program never changes or won't again in the future. All I'm saying is that you are not going to convince me that those who have never used the program are the ones who are going to know how to improve it. Before you can improve a recipe it would help if you knew how to cook. BW

It is incredibly sad to think that there are scouts who are trapped in a local unit program where adults have to "plan" to have fun one time a month. You don't have fun at troop meetings? You don't enjoy seeing scouts, learn or grow? Outings are so much work that they are not fun? If you haven't made the scouting process fun at every meeting or event and have gotten to the point where you have to schedule in fun...then you are not doing it right. And the scouts pay a much higher price for your inability to enjoy the program than you do. The acorn may not fall far from the tree...but have you ever considered that it was just tired of hanging around so many nuts(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Boy lead does not mean adult abdicated. The methods of scouting are there as a road map for the adult leaders as signposts that the road you are traveling is a scouting program and not just activities in a scout shirt. To think that by being boy lead that the adult has no role or responsibility in the direction or elements of the program is a gross misuse of the term. The original post has not explained if their class B consists of anything more than a red polo and it makes a difference. Do they wear a scout activity uniform instead of field or "official" uniform or do they only wear a scout shirt, which by itself in a troop program is not a uniform at all. My guess would be, and I would like to discuss this with drockstur, is 'is this the only method that is ignored or misused?. I would be willing to bet that it isn't.

Since these were your ideas and no one else on this forum has ever put forth these suggestions I guess the only person who thinks this way is....you.

Sorry, I do not know what your definition is of a "class B" uniform. With the red polo do you also wear the scout pants or scout shorts with a scout belt and scout socks?

"Why is it that it's ok to blame the leaders, it's ok to blame the parents, it's ok to blame the kids, but the program itself is untouchable?" Because the only ones who complain about the program are the ones who don't use it. There has never been a single post by someone who actually used the program who said it didn't work. I have never seen a unit that followed the program fold. I have never seen a unit that followed the program lose more scouts than they gained. The only people to complain about the program are those who don't use the program. It's not that the program is hard to do, it is relative simple as educational programs go, but it does take effort. And not ewveryone puts effort into the commitments they make. It's not that poor leaders outnumber good leaders either. yje problem is that poor leaders do more damage to membership than the good leaders can make up for. When a poor leader expects to lose 50% of his new scouts each year and does, it's almost impossible for a good leader to make up for that loss. How do you keep more than 100% of those that join? If the unit that you serve is in trouble the problem...and the solution is with your adult leaders.

WOW how many different topics can you discuss in one post? I thought this was about the BSA trademark not the membership regulations. Trademarks are a tool of the freemarket not a hinderance to it. The BSA trademark and the BSA congressional charter are two different things. The BSA showed enough evidence that the word "scout" in relationship to a youth movement, was significantly identifiable to the members of the BSA. and that at the time it was granted no other youth movement had that strong of identity. The same rules are applied today for trademark applications. Its a long process, over a years time for the name to be researched and challenged. But once you have the trademark it's yours until you abandon it. Other youth groups have managed to do just fine without the name "scout" in them so whats the problem? Why the need to ride on the coat tails of the 95 year history of the BSA? So far in EVERY case that has challenged the trademark, a judge has found sufficient evidence that to do so would impede on the legal rights of the BSA. What legal grounds are you aware of that no lawyer has every thought of that would give any credibibility to your opinion? "But the BSA is not Scouting, the BSA is just a religious corporation that seeks to identify Scouting with right wing politics. And there is the crux of the matter. You personally do not like the parent organization and you have no idea who "they" are or what "they" do. And so you feed that lack of information with emotion rather than fact. I watched a windmill at work once that had no grain, but when the wind blew the arms started spinning and the mill wheels started grinding but nothing got produced. Complaining is no different.

Have you ever know kids that will drop the activity thats the most fun? The challenge scouting makes to leaders is to deliver"the best show in town". Anything else and you will lose scouts to something more fun. Scouting is designed to appeal to the nature of scouts at each stage of devempoment. It will work if they get a real scouting program. We can blame mebership lasses to all sorts of things (as we have seen on this forum) parents, school, peer pressure, other activities, the kids themselves, the sun was in my eyes, there was a rock in shoe, I tripped etc. etc. but the botom line is the quality of you r last meeting. That is what will determine if a scout returnes next week. And the adult leaders have total control and responsibility for the quality of scouting that is delivered in the unit they serve. You will never solve any program problem by continually blaming others for it.

If you are in a rut and you have a perfectly good ladder to climb out with, as you admit, then what do you need another ladder for? If you aren't using the one you were alreday have what is to lead anyone to believe you would use a different one? Leaders need to start using the ladder they have and climb above the rut they themselves dug. If that ladder doesn't get you out then you have grounds to ask for another one. The BSA program works....when it's used.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

How many other Red Cross-like programs are there in the USA with the word Cross in them? How many Civil Air Patrols are there with the name Air Patrol in them? How many other Royal Ranger-like programs are there with the name Ranger in them? Can you think of any other 4-H organizations that have the phrase 4-H in their name? What is the this thing some people have for wanting the BSA to be like like other programs? Just because England does it do we really have to? My apologies to Eamonn but I refuse to drink beer at room temperature just because our British friends do. There are well over a hundred different Scouting programs in the world and very few are structured like England, or like us, or like Chile. Why do we have to be like anybody else? Trademarking the scouting name benefits us as members by certifying our identity in the community. Why do you suppose that other group wants the word Scout in their name? For the instant identification. Whose history and identification are they looking to benefit from? Ours. It's not the word they want, it's the instant community recognition factor that we as members have developed over nearly one hundred years. It is the assumption of program quality based on the BSA program that they want people to identify with when they hear their name. They want people to think they they are us. This is not the first time this has been tried. This kind of thing pops up every few years. Every time the court has upheld the BSA trademark, it will in this case also. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So then you are changing your statement and agreeing that there have been other youth organizations that have developed successfully despite the BSa trademarking the name Scouting?

Indian Guides, 4-H, Civil Air Patrol, Royal Rangers, Campfire Boys and Girls..... ever think that mabe the reason some aren't as large as the BSA is simply because they aren't as appealing to the youth as the BSA programs. Maybe it has nothing to do with whether its a monopoly or not meaybe its just becaues its a good program?