Bob White

Eamonn, rest easy, kids have not changed all that much and neither has scouting. Oh sure there are some small adjustments and a few cosmetic changes but for the most part things are not that different. And you'll be happy to hear its still not rocket science. My son has all but left the troop, the reason is severe boredom. We had to drive about 70 miles to find a scout unit that had a program that grabbed him. Sea Scouts! Aye matey, me and boy have become sailors. What he likes is ...they do stuff! He went three months before he got in a boat on water but he was still having fun. Every scout (there are 9) wear the uniforms and no one had to force them, we just talked to them about heritage, and image, and pride in who you are. You should see these guys in their dress whites. Whle we waited to get on water we worked on our boats, learned terminology, learned courtesies, learned skills like right of way, knots navigation. Then he got on the water. A day of training in a harbor and then Wham...he's and another Sea Scout are crewing a 16 footer nearly a mile out on Lake Michigan. It was awesome! Last weekend we had a family camp and sail with another ship in the area. We had 3 sail boats from 12 to 25 ft in length, a 2 person wave runner, and a power boat towing two inner tubes. We had a blast. And in between stuff we counciled a couple fellows who were strting to irritate each other and got them back together as friends, prepared 2 boys who are heading off for SEAL training this week (Sea Explorer Advanced Leadership). We recruited a new member, planned our next two activities, counseled 4 scouts who are working on their Eagle requirements. No bossing anyone around, no decisions were made by an adult that a scout could make, evryone pitched in together on every task that had to be done. Scouting and scouts are inded alive and well. In units that deliver scouting, youth will become scouts. Fair winds, BW

I don't know if this is the kind of tip you are really after but it might be a lot of help to you. About three years back the BSA did an extensive poll of both Scouts who left the program and of the leaders they left. They polled a couple thousand boys and their leaders. 8 out of ten boys listed as their #1 reason for leaving the program as "boring meetings". Interestingly enough not a single adult leader even mentioned that in their lists of why these same boys quit. They had in fact listed the same excuses we have heard from some posters here. The leaders listed: unsupportive parents, peer pressure, too much homework, too many conflicting activities, (sun was in my eyes, rock in my shoe etc.). Here's my point. When you ask you scouts why they left you will probably hear the same things the leaders listed, because the boys and their families have no interest in hurting feelings so they are going to say the things you would think they might say. But to a third unknown party (also to their friends and neighbors, they are going to tell the truth. Odds are if you are lossing a significant number (around 10% or more) the very first thing you should do is look at the weekly program activities. Personnaly, I know very few folks who are able to look objectively at their own program delivery. So you might sit down with someone whose opinion you trust from outside the unit and revioew the week to week program to see if the oproblem is their. One quick way to check is see how many minutes in a den meeting the scouts are sitting down without an activity in their hands. If thay are going over 10 minutes without moving around and doing things then you have a program problem. If you do chose to interview the scouts,be sure to use an outsider interviewer and remember to ask the same questions of their leaders.Then compare the notes.

While There may have been some units chartered directly by Schools that does not alter the the fact that schools are not and have not been the #1 Co in the BSA for quite some time. According the the History of scouting in the LDS church there were over 24,500 LDS units at the time you report that public schools and just over 10, 000. Even the number of units sponsored by the United Methodist Men's Club exceeded that number, and I am fairly sure that the Units sponsored by the catholic church did as well. However I am glad to see you regard the BSA Today as a believable source. Here is there reporting of the parets poll that I refered to. http://www.bsa-dpvc.org/forms/bsatoday-0104.pdf BW

What you said was "So Bob, when public schools were the #1 charter partner of BSA units" So tell us when was the last year that public schools were the #1 chartering organization.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Rooster, I never said you did. I said that the BSA was not setting itself up as a judge of sins or sinners and that scouters should not suggest that it is. But while you being so insistant that you do not judge others and on howthat the passage in John I mentioned has no bearing on you... please be careful about judging my typos unless you believe you have never typed anything in error yourself. I am interested in the part where you say you have taught scouts that homosexuality is a sin. I've been doing this program for a fair bit of time and I can't think of a single moment when this topic of education was ever appropriate or needed in a scouting environment. I have had two scouts who were raised in homes with homosexual partners and I still never had occassion for the discussion you suggest. In fact I don't think the topic of sin ever really came up. We always discussed positive behaviour not negative. So when are you having these topics on homosexuality arising?

Public schools rarely were the sponsors of scout units they only acted as the meeting place, the PTA's, PTO's and other parent groups were the sponsors. And yes they must have voted to exclude athiests for I know that even in the days that they were the near majority of sponors that athiests were restricted from membership. (I know because my parents were both scout leaders in those days and so I asked) How hard is it to figure out when the Oath you take is to "do your best to do your duty to God", that an athiest would be unable to fulfill that obligation?

And that's a perfect example of how the BSA helps units to succeed through the development of a lot of excellent support materials based on nearly 100 years of scouting experience. Rather than have to wait two years to discover such an effective tool of directly asking the specific people with specific skills to do specific jobs, a volunteer can read a 4 page brochure that has been available for decades, or attend New Leader Essentials course where how to select and recruit volunteers is taught within the first 90 minutes of your basic leader training. There is a BSA resource available to solve or avoid nearly every hurdle a leader might face in scouting. The other benefit is that they interlock with other BSA policies and procedures to create a more interwoven and inter-related program.

There seems to be a misunderstanding among some volunteers as to who owns the BSA and who actually makes decisions in the BSA. If you think the BSA decision makers are suits you are for the most part mistaken, especially in program related matters. A rather simplified model is McDonalds Rstaurants. There is a corporate entit that franchises the specific image, product and process to local franchisees. The franchisee inturn hires managers, who hire employees, who serve the customer. BSA is the corporation, Chartered organizations are the Franchisees, The CR, and CC the management team, the volunteers are the employees, and the youth are the customers. Mr. Nelson wants the employees to make the corporate decisions at McDonalds. And while that is what happens on a limited basis in the BSA it is never going to happen that way completely. The Corporate directors made of Charter Representatives, hire the corporate professionals to run the day to day aspects of things and to manage the future health of the movement. The COs and local franchise holders (councils) recommend key volunteers to help design and plan the program. Each volunteer committee is assigned a professional whose responsibitiy is to put the decision of the volunteer committee into action. There are several hundred volunteers nationwide involved daily in the development of every aspect of the Scouting movement in the BSA. Just because you do not know one personally could be due to a number of reasons. Among the most likely are 1)there are tens of thousands of volunteers in the BSA it could be that you simply have not met one yet. 2) You perhaps currently run in a different crowd than the people who are selected for such projects. The membership rules are determined by the relationships committee and the national executive board. These committees are made up almost entirely of volunteers that represent the chartered otrganizations that use scouting.

Gern, As a private organization the BSA can revoke anyone's membership for any reason they want.

Oops sorry, John 8:7

At no time did I say I owned the BSA. The BSA is owned by the chartered organizations. The membership rules are set by them. Persoonally I feel to say that the rule is saying that the the person is "unworthy" is simply a tool you and some others use to feign martyrdom. The BSA has never said anything of the sort If you are a 12 year old girl you can't be a menber of the BSA are they "unworthy"? If an army veteran wasn't in an active foriegn theater are they "unworthy" to be in the VFW? Of course not. They simply do not fit the goals and purpose of the private organization. This is not a camping club. This is a educational organization and you don't like what it teaches. Yet you remain a member. Matt on the other and stood up for who he was and what he believed in. He took the risk for his conviction, and he now he doesn't want to pay the price for them. Standing up for who you are and what you believe in is tough. Not everyone can do that. I respect Matt for his conviction. I would respect him more if he accepted the consequences with the same strength of his convictions. Membership in any private organization is not a right, and it is not something you get just because you want it. He chose to violate the membership rules. You chose not to. Matt could have made the same choice you have and remained a member. The BSA did not demand he violate the rules. I certainly did not. If you could retain your membership all these years then why couldn't Matt make the same choice? Scouting is a game with a purpose, it's also a game with rules. Do not choose to violate the rules and then blame it on the game. At no time did I judge Matt as an individual and neither did the BSA. As Matt said himself he reached "a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation". What he discovered was that who he came to realize he was, and what the BSA's membership rules are, no longer were the same. The rules were not established to punish Matt for who he is they exist to define what the BSA movement represents. The whole idea behind the freesom of association is to allow groups of people with similar interest to associate without interference. No one has to join, but to be able to join you are required to meet the membership expectations. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Remember this is Cub Scouts so we need to start with the basics. A 'Simon Says' type game where the scouts have to point North, South, East or West depending on what the game leader cals out. A 'Concentration' type of game where you have pairs of pictures of map symbols (write the name of the map feature on the face with the symbol so that the scouts can learn them as they match them up). Scouts take tuirns flipping two cards face up as they match a pair they get a prize. Put a paper sack over each boys head and give each a compass let hem hold the bag open with one hand so that all they can see is the compass. Ask each to walk a given number of steps North and stop. Tell them not to take the bag off untill you tell them. give a prize to each boy as he does the task correctly. Have the others do them over until they go the right direction. Give each den a map of their town and have them mark where each lives. Hope they have fun BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I see no reason for you to take offense. You asked a question and I answered it. In any case, both my posts were clear. I implied nothing, and I cannot control what you might infer. As far as the content of John 8: I am confident you have the appropriate resources at hand to discover the answer to your question. BW

"However, you seem to be implying that we, believers and followers of Christ, should not be identifying sin either." Where did I imply that? You have inferred that perhaps, but I never implied it. If you want to be able to identify sin so that you can "avoid the near occasion of sin" for yourself or to help others that's fine. But if your goal is to know sin so that you can point at others and judge them as sinners then remember the caution of John 8:11. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

troop251scout, What do remember wanting do or to learn most about once you became a scout? Do some of those things with them. Don't try to do all of it, just enogh to give them a taste.

Madkins, Why do you assume that there was no youth over 25 years ago when the current uniform was developed? I find it funny to think that anyone believes you can stop kids from teasing kids for being in Scouting by changing the clothes they wear. They are not teased for their clothing, they are teased for the traditional values that Scouting represents. When a young man who follows the rules and makes mature decisions even adults ask 'what are you some kinda Boy Scout" as if that was a bad thing. So What? Why do scouters want minimal uniforms to try and hide we are scouts. If you are ashamed to be recognized then you should do yourself a favor and spend your time doing something you are proud of being. No one should be doing anything they are ashamed of. In the same vein let's not be teaching our scouts to be ashamed of you they are. No mateer what you make the uniform, even if wear just a wristwatch, as soon as someone recognized it as a scout watch he is gonna get teased. Rather than look for a way to hide why aren't you teaching him about the strength that comes with the values of scouting. Stop worrying about dressing as an outdoorsman and start teaching character. If you have faith in your beliefs you do not have to apologize for who you are or what you stand for. No amout of uniform changes will replace having confidence in who you are. You should see my son's Sea Scout Ship. These guys look for opportunities to wear their dress whites. My son's scout troop has 5 guys going to Jamboree and two going to NYLD and these are all guys who regularly wear a complete uniform. These guys wear their scout t-shirts to high school. Do you think they get teased? Sure they do, but they're good kids and they would probably get teased sometimes anyway. The thing is they don't care. That's just human nature for kids. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are no skits specifically banned by the BSA nor is the Bandana/Banana skit in any way a violation of the guidelines given by the BSA. All program events are to be in good taste. There is no place in scouting for poor manners, racial, ethnic, or gender slurs; or vulgarity.

Matt Please do not confuse the individual opinions of any scouter as the viewpoint of the BSA. The BSA has at no time determined what is or is not a sin, that is not their role. Nor has the BSA ever found it to be their place to judge an individual as a sinner, that role in my personal opinion is best left to God. The stand taken by the BSA on homosexuality is simply that it does not represent the values of the BSA. The make no claim of having the only values that matter, only that as a private organization this is what the representatives of the Chartering Organizations have deterrmined they believe in, and want the BSA to represent. Again, The BSA leaves you free to make your choices, you must leave the BSA free to make theirs. No one says that you must agree.

Matt allow me to point out some serious flaws in your last post "First of all, being gay is not a decision." Whether it is or not is not relevent. Being male is not a choice either but if you want to be a Cub Scout or Boy Scout you still have to be male. The choice you made was to support homosexuality in opposition to the BSA's membership rules. "Secondly, I make the correlation between a gay parent being told to not participate in Scouting activities and then a child not being able to participate because for some events, especially for young Scouters such as Tiger Scouts and Cub Scouts, parental involvement and presence is REQUIRED for some events such as camping trips or father/son camporees. " You are wrong on many levels here. First there is nothing in the BSA regulations that bars a homeosexual parent from attending any event, Parental involvement is not required for tiger membership, adult partner is. That can be anyone approved by the parent or guardian. I have never heard of a Father/son camporee being done in the BSA. "My father was never really involved in my Scouting experience and I was LUCKY to have my friend's father act in his stead. I am sorry for you but that was by your fathers choice not the BSA's, and outsdide of Tigers it was not necessary for your fathers friend to be involved at all, that was your families choice not the BSA. "Also, do you not think that it does not hurt a youth when you tell him he is no longer wanted by his friends, well, practically his family. I was all of sudden told to no longer come around or be around or participate in events that pretty much made up my entire childhood with people I had grown up with. My friends and their parents were more than just fellow Scouters... they were like my family. So much for family sticking together I guess. When did the BSA say your family and friends did not want you? They never said that. They said that you did not meet the membership criteria of the BSA by your own actions in making you support of homosexuality public...Your Choice! The BSA said nothing to your friends and family, andy loss you occured there was not caused or contributed to by the BSA. Is it not possible tat your scouting friends were simply not as thrilled with your choice as you expected them to be and instead had values that were more like those reflected in the membership criteria of the BSA? "My dismissal and the BSA policy shows what the BSA really is. I'm not talking about individual Scouters, for I know that there are many people involved in Scouting which take the principals of Scouting seriously. In fact, I still come in contact with just a few of my former Troop mates and their parents (the same ones who did not agree with the policy and wanted me to stay). " Not as many as you might think about two years ago the BSA had a poll done and found that an overwhelming majority of the membership polled supported the BSA values including their membership criteria. "The BSA policy shows that the Boy Scouts of America, Inc. is nothing but hypocritical. The Scout Law includes such principals as trustworthiness, honesty, loyalty, friendliness and kindness. All of those principals were broken when I was told to leave and also when other Scouts across the nation have been told to leave." I am sure you would like to believe that but did the BSA call you names? Did they taunt you? Did they make any effort to emabarrass you. Did they cantact any of your friends or ralatives and try to have your persecuated in any way? NO. They simple said that you violated a condition of membership. One that existed when you joined. The BSa did not change...you changed. The BSA made no effort to be unkind about your choice, they were not discourteous, untrustworthy, nor did they violate any part of the scout Oath or Law. You changed and in that change you removed yourself from membership. Had you not chosen to make your preference public you would not have had your membership revoked. You broke the rules. All choices have repercussions, some good some not so good. "How is it honest if I would have had to lie to stay in the Scouts?" Who asked you to lie? In fact who asked you to say anything at all? You chose your preference and You chose to make it public, then you expected nothing would change. That's not how life works. "I did what I was supposed to do... I told the truth, I was honest. I should have been able to expect that my fellow Scouts would be trustworthy, friendly and kind enough to love me and accept me no matter what." Matt to think that simply telling the truth makes what you say acceptable to everyone is a sign of your youth and lack of adult reasoning. Just because you tell the truth doesn't make your decision acceptable. The truth is you chose to violate the membership regulation. "Scouting is more than just an organization. It is family. When a boy becomes involved in Socuting at a young age and then is told to leave once he reaches a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation, it is not right to tell him to leave the people who he has come to love since being a young child." Scouting is an organization. Many people grow close quickly because the share the same scouting values. Values that are not fully in tune with your choices. By the way you mention that your sexual and religious orientation 'matured', that raises two questions 1) does that mean that the vast majority of us who have not come to the choices you have made are immature in our decision? 2) is your matured religious beliefs in keeping with the BSA membership regulations? No need for a response just wondering out loud Any 'family' sense you had came from your personal interaction with those you have come in contact with who believed that you shared their same beliefs and values. Your life choices may or may not alter those relationships, but it has nothing to do with the decisions of the BSA. Discrimination by the Boy Scouts of America causes hurt by making abuses to gay youth's self-esteem, self image and psyche. Adolescence is such a hard time for teenagers today.... Add in questions of sexuality and the rejection that gay people face in society on a DAY TO DAY basis.... its no wonder why the suicide rate amongst gay and lesbian youth is so high." Are you actually aware of any who took their own life because they could not be a boy scout? I bet not. Why is it you are so willing to blame your woes on the values of the BSA then on the strong possibillity that for whatever the elements that have determined your homosexuality it is not consistant with the values of the majority of today's society. Isn't it just barely possible that the problem is in your lifestyle and not ours? The Boy Scouts of America breaks the principals contained with the Scout Law when is discriminates against and hurts youth. Our youth are to precious to be discriminated against and hurt, for they are our nation's most precious gift to the world... they are our future Senators, Congressmen, teachers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, clergy, parents, military servicemembers, and maybe even President. Homosexuality is not a discrimination against any individual for being a youth. It is a discrimination based on publicly supporting a value that the BSA has said very clearly they do not represent. It has nothing to do with youth and in fact you are among a tiny number of youth whose membership was affected in this way. Most were adults. "I will end with this: If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea. The Holy Gospel of our Lord according to Saint Matthew 18:6 New Revised Standard Versi" I find that very distasteful that you take a quote regarding the punishment for keeping children from discovering Jesus and turn it ito a suggestion that keeping children from discoving homosexuality is equivalent. Or that keeping them from Scouting is in any way the same. I understand you anxiety over this situation. You stood up for what you believed in...well so did the BSA, it's just that you do not believe in the same things any longer. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Ronvo, First let me remind you that as a private organization the BSA has the legal right to determine membership "at will". They, like any private organization can determine based on any criteria they choose whether, published or not, to terminate anyone's membership. This is not a matter of "is that right or wrong", it is simply what is. A private organization has the legal right to choose who they wish to associate with and who they wish to allow to associate with them. A condition recognized and supported by a decision of the US Supreme Court. In this case Matt chose to not only belong to, but to start, a group in support of gay/homosexual activity or lifestyle. A preference not supported by the membership criteria of the BSA. Had Matt's homosexuality not been made public, an action he could reasonably presume would follow after starting his club and allowing the interview, he mighty still be a member today. Mat was not required to start his club, he chose to. Matt is not required or guaranteed, membership in a private organization. If he meets the membership qualification he may be granted membership but it is not his right to belong.

If the field uniform was meant to be used for outdoor activities then a fashion designer was the wrong way to go, but it wasn't designed for that. REI just for the record is neither a clothing designer or a manufacturer. They are retailer. They buy primarily european apparel and equipment and private label them with their logo. using them woulds simply add another layer to the process of manufacturer to end-user causing the price to climb even higher. Columbia however is a manufacturer and a designer, and would be able to accomodate a task such as re-design of the BSA uniforms if they chose to. BUT, is there anyone who believes that they would not want a handsome sum of money for such a project? Is there anyone who sees Columbia as a less expensive product than the BSA's. Does anyone truly believe that the wish that has been stated so often on this forum of "better materials, better workmanship AND lower prices" is even possible in an open market? But what if Columbia made the uniform, and it was designed for the outdoors. Columbia makes lots of different clothes for the outdoors. Why do you suppose that is? Because different people have different tastes? Because different environments require different materials and features? Because different activities require different clothing? If they can't provide a one ensemble fits all needs NOW, what makes you think they can do it with a Boy Scout uniform? The problem is user expectations. Some do not like the uniform because they fail to understand what a uniform is or does. No one will be able to design a uniform that will fit everyones taste, budget, purpose, locale, or attitude, for such a wide sweeping need as "the outdoors". For that fact no one will be able to do it for the present limited purpose of the field uniform. The problem is not the clothes or the designer, the problem is the vast sea of individual preferences among the end-users. That coupled with the inability of some to accept the fact that a UNIFORM means everyone wears the same thing whether you personally care for or not. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Matt, The BSA has no authority over unregistered youth or adults. BSA rules only affect BSA members. The charter organization who owns the unit can set more stringent rules if they choose to. Your membership was removed from the BSA for a very simple reason. You did not meet the membership requirement once your homosexuality was made public. Lots of people are unable to join private organiztions for not meeting membership requirements not just you. And the BSA is not the only private organization to have membership requirements. Just because you like scouting does not qualify you for membership. You could like the military but you can't join the VFW unless you were in a conflict on foriegn soil. Good luck joining MENSA if your IQ isn't high enough. Try being a religious leader in a synagogue if you are not Jewish. Lots of private organizations have restrictive membership, the BSA just happens to be one that has a rule you did not meet. So there is nothing unique or mysterious as to why you cannot be a member of the BSA. It was due to a decision you made. As a parent non-member the BSA has no authority to keep you from attending a scouting event. The Charter Organization can choose otherwise however.

As F scouter pointed out the epaulets are the flaps that button down on the uniform shirt. Shoulder loops are the colored fabric loops that cover the epaulet and signify the program. The BSA insignia polices prohibit wearing foreign uniform pieces with the BSA uniform except for specific awards. There are some very colorful Scouting collectables that are great fun to have as a token of our world brotherhood. That does not make them appropriate for wear on ther BSA uniform. It might be helpful in uniform discussion to remember what UNIFORM means. 1 : consistent in conduct or opinion 2 : having always the same form, manner, or degree 3 : of the same form with others : conforming to one rule or mode : 4 : presenting an unvaried appearance of surface, pattern, or color

OGE is correct.

"What if we went to something similar to B-P's old statement that all you need to be a Scout is a 'neckerchief and a stave'. You would have some untrained or inept leaders losing scouts by the trailer load and blaming the problem on the BSA staves not being high enough quality or costing too much. One question will of course be repeated over and over, "are staves required for membership?".