Bob White

Pete, what I am saying is that even in a scout town of nearly 40 thousand just as in any town, the owner of the property has a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to safeguard their belongings. The scout should not have started a load of laundry and then left it unattended. There were perhaps a dozen washers and a dozen driers to serve several hundred staff members. Often a small line of people waiting to do their laundry. To leave a machine unattended inconveniences everyone. Had the scout stayed with his laundry as he was supposed to his belongings would not have disappeared. His lack of care with his personal belongings makes him as responsible for the disappearance as the person who may have taken them. If the scout had placed his name and troop number on every peice of clthing as he was instructed to do then the clothing, if turned into the lost and found, will be returned. Otherwise, all L&F items have been send to the national headquarters where staffers will try to match the THOUSANDS of abandoned items with the loss reports in an effort to reunite them with their owners. Far more items were lost due to poor onwership than to theft.

If you are asking if it would be OK for the pack to add the requirement then the answer is a resounding NO. The knot is an award from the BSA not from the unit and so the unit has no authority to add a requirement.

My son and I both hope to return on staff in 2010.

Pete, wWhat is your source of information on that story? I was in the the Mahone staff area and visited the laundry on a few occassions. I never heard of any theft. In addition, my son was in the jamboree band and only heard of one shirt/laundry incident in which a band member left a shirt behind for a prolonged period of time before remembering it and when he went back it was gone. It very well could have been in on its way to either the Mahone of Heth Lost & Found. At the time my son was told of the event the scout had not bothered to check either one.

Participation in jamboree requires a high adventure physical for a reason. It can be a tough environment. The heat index for most of the last 7 days prior to the arena show was in excess of 100 degrees. Anyone who brought a 3 year old child into that environment should be criminally prosecuted in my opinion. While there were some problems at jamboree there were also some truly wonderful times. You cannot operate a town of that size and not have some problems. In talking to many of the Jamboree directors personally I feel that that have learned a lot from those problems and have already taken positive steps to correct them in the future. But let's use our head folks and not bring the elderly or the very young into such a hostile weather environment in or out of a jamboree setting. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I believe this is what you are refering to: http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/support/training/gilwell/index.htm

Like with any scout do not step in unless it is a matter of health or safety. Let the boys make it through camp on their own whether they are your son or not. Your job is to stand back and observe. Who is showing good skills, who is not? What skills should the SPL be looking to recylcle instruction on? Who is using good leadership among the scouts? Look for opportunities to praise or counsel quietly, but unless someone is in danger stay out of the patrol and troop leadership scene. that is not an adults job.

These are really not an advancement situations, these are safety and Youth Protection matters, and they should be reported to the council Scout Executive.

I have no problem with any award the BSA wants to make for the BSA uniform. What I do not understand is where Craig felt he had the authourity to create it. For him to suggest the award to national is one thing but to go to his scouts and say "hey, how about I make uo a national award?" is way beynd his authority as a unit leader.

Sorry,Yes it was the 1972 handbook that removed utdoor skills from Frst Cass. Wish I could say it was a typo but I got the year wrong, it was 76 that had that awfull white cover. But it was not the sixties as originally posted and the trend lasted a very short time. After which Hillcourt was brought back to re-write the Handbook.

Kahuna your scouting history is in error. The urban program did not take place in the 60's. It happened in 1976, and lasted only a few years. By 1979 it had returned to the more traditional program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Now who owes who an apology." Based on the tone and rudeness of your remarks I would have to say that it would be you. Forgive me if I do not find you the most reliable source on scouting I have available to me. I will be leaving shortly for Jamboree and when I return I will look for the information that Scoutnut politely requested.

From the vantage point of the methods and mission onf the BSA, the differences observed by Madkins are a matter of packaging, the product inside has alktered very little. Things like delf image, self reliance, a charcater in active development, the stages of social development, the actual inner workings of a childs development ahve changed very little, scouting has made slight alterations over they ars to accomodate those changes and is still a relevant program in every aspect..

I believe you will find it in the uniforming section of the Venturing Leaders Handbook, where it talks about medals that can be worn on formal occassions. I apologize but my handbook is not readily available or I would look up the page #.

Yes, I have been a Scoutmaster, and an Assistant Scoutmaser, and a Sea Scout leader (which is a part of Venturing), I never said I was an Advisor, I said I was a leader in the Venturing Program and I am. I have been a Den Leader and a Cubmaster as well as a few other position at various levels of scouting. You assume incorrectly that I have been all these things at once, and I have never said that I was. I have been in the program for many years, and that has offered me the opportunity to serve youth in a number of leadership roles in scouting. You admitted confusing the Venture Silver with the Girl Scout Silver Award, an easy mistake to make. But assuming that I had no Venturing background was an error, as was your assumption that I was wrong about the Silver Award. both could have been avoided had you simply chosen to have a decent conversation rather than the off-handed comment you chose to make. In the future why not just post a question rather than continue to be inaccurate with your guesses. I would be happy to give a polite response to a polite question, and I am always happy to help leaders who are genuinely looking for answers.

Backpacker, You could have chosen to make your incorrect comment without attacking me personally. Then you could have apologized to me specifically when proven wrong, rather than just a nameless apology as you did. I do not understand your constant personal attacks or why you continue to make the assumptions about my background that you do. I am an active leader in the Venturing program, I have taught Venturing Basic Training since it was released. I hope in the future you can be depended on to comment only on the topic of the thread and to leave your personal attacks out of your posts. The Girl Scout Silver Award Medal is approved for wear on the Venturing uniform for formal occassions as I originally shared.

It is not the uniform that the kids are being teased for it is the values and characteristics that the uniform represents. Trust me, I had my junior high class picture taken I my Boy Scout uniform. To this day I am still called "Frog" (my school nickname from that day forward) becasue of my all green uniform. And that was the late 1960's in the previous uniform. My grandfather was a Scoutmaster in the early 1920s and kids were teased in that day for being scouts. Kids will tease anyone for anything. It's a matter of nurture. If kids don't feel good about who they are then you tease others to make themselves feel better than others. Kids (and adults) who feel good about who they are and what they do will not be concerned about being seen or known as scouts.

Actually he's just a typical 17 year old. No better or worse in his skills than nost with his experience. He can buy his own food cook his own meals, set up his own tent, pack his own gear. He knows how to be adventurous without being reckless. The challenge is that he's been to Philmont, Northern Tier, and JLT. He's been an APL,PL,QM, Librarian, ASPL, and a SPL 3 times. You cannot expect him to experience the same year over and over as a senior scout (while new scouts see everything as new adventures) and not get bored. The program, had it been followed, could have kept him. As it is he will probabley complete his Eagle as a Sea Scout.

Where do you see kids dressing as individuals? They dress to be different from adults but they try to dress like each other. Go to any mall and look at the sameness of styles in a group of kids walking together. Oh sure different "groups" may dress differently, but within each group is a remarkable sameness. Just like Scouting Look at gangs, how do they identify each other? They use 'colors' and 'signs' just like Scouting. You can even see that in a workplace. Even when uniforms are not mandatory like at UPS or in pro sports, people tend to dress in a similar way. Have you ever heard of 'dressing like the boss' or 'dressing like the job you want to have'? Looking the part has been a part of human psyche for a long lomng time. And dressing to show your social group is as much a part of our culture today as ever. The biggest problem in Scout uniforming appears to be the attitude and leadership style of the unit leader.

You said over 50%. If I was the event organizer and I knew that over 50% of the participants were going to leave by sundown Saturday then you can bet that so would the majority of the planned program. it makes good sense.

As the brother of two law enforcement officers I may be able to cast some light on this. Both my brothers have taken reports on stolen scout trailers. They all had a common element which by the photo in this article is shared by this trailer as well...no outside identification that it is a scout trailer. Here is the likely problem. Contractors store a lot of valuable tools in their trailers. They don't want to advertise that it is a contractor's trailer because they don't want it broken into or stolen so they leave the outside blank. Some scout units also leave it blank usually do to cost of customizing or because they haven't gotten around to it yet. heives aren't trying to steal scout trailers they are trying to steal tools and get scout trailers by mistake. Here is the solution. Troops need to get identification on their trailers ASAP. Contractors need to camoflage their trailers by decorating them as ficticious scout troops. This isn't to say that some trailers clearly identified as scout trailers don't get stolen, but the likely hood is far less. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The knots on a scouting uniform repesent advancment or service recognized as a member of the BSA. Whjile the Siver Awrd is a wonderful achievement it does not currently fit the puroses of the square knot. According to the BSA insignia Guide and the Venturing Handbook, the Siler award medal itself can be worn on the Venturing uniform on formal occassions.

Regardless of how large the density of mormons are in your council they have no say as to the membership rules of the national organization, no single council or single organization has that kind of power. The national executive committee ia a wide mix of representatives form throughout the demographics of scouting in the BSA.

The BSA provides liabilty protection for the CO and any registered adult, however it is important that all related BSA policies be followed in order to insure that the protection will be in-force. A leader who ignores any BSA safety regulations can jeopardize that protection.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

First let me point out that Sea Scout IS a traditional Scouting program, having begun in 1912 just two years after the BSA was formed, and 18 years before Cub Scouting was started. The skills required for Sea Scout advancement are in fact MUCH more difficult than those required in the Boy Scout Program however they have many of the same skill categories. I agree Eamonn, I wish that the Venture Patrol in his troop had the adventure he and the others needed, but it didn't. You cannot expect older boys to remain if all they do is interact with the new scouts and do activities designed for the lower skill levels of the majority of a troop membership. That's why the three level program in a troop is so important and unfortunately under used or ignored based on the feedback on this forum at least. But again its not just the program but how it is delivered. There are ships closer to us that do not have the same attitude as the leaders in this ship have, and thats what makes the difference. I met the skipper at Wood Badge last year when I was his patrol's Troop Guide. The other mate and I were both on staff. The best part of the leadership team is that we have the same vision of the program and what we want it to accomplish. This is the most fun I have had in the past couple of years. The Scouts are a great bunch, they challenge us to keep ahead of their curiosity and abilities. But it works both ways. They tell us that it's the opportunities we put in front of them that creates the need for them to learn more. And that's how it should be, a teaching/learning partnership, and it starts with the adult volunteer. Fair Winds, BW