Bob White

Prairie Scouter writes "No, I don't think that the indication of a heartbeat is indicative of life." I have to wonder how many living individuals he has met who do not have a heartbeat? Prairie, if you follow your first-aid training and you come upon a body that is unresponsive what are the first things you check to determine the severity of their condition?

While you cannot ask the scout to tie a square knot to prove he knows how to do it, you can ask him "if" he has tied a square knot, and how he used it. The BOR has the responsibility to make sure that the requirement was met. FS is correct, ask the scout how he is reverent in his life, and how he fulfills his obligation of Duty to God. Those questions are perfectly legitimate topics for a BoR, and they are legitimate reasons for delaying advancement if the scout is not able to show that he has completed the related requirement.

The decision making body of a troop is made of the elected members of the PLC plus the Troop Guide.

You could no more run a government acording to the bible than you could run it based on a book on physics. Neither was not written for that purpose. To suggest that it is the intent of Christians to do so is a gross misrepresentation. Which in a way takes us back to the actual topic of the thread.

I was being neither unfriendly or discourteous. I was trying to give the poster a more constructive and productive avenue to deal with his concerns than to simply tell a bunch of annonymous strangers on the internet. If he has a problem with what happened (and I can understand why he would) then he shoulkd take steps that could actually lead to some kind of actual result. Posting it here will not.

"about the 503c status. BSA could terminate this status and spread their wings to fly freely." What exactly do you mean by that? In what way is the BSA caged by being a registered 501c3 organization? How would losing that designation bve a benefit to the BSA its volunteers or its supporters? What does fly freely mean in this context? How does it relate to the topic?

While the "injection" of a spirit maybe impossible to prove,...is a heartbeat?

fishing lures and tackle, books on camping and outdoor cooking, home made neckerchief slides, frisbees, certificates and recognitions, Scouting collectibles, lexan vittle kits, waterproof matches, firestarters, sewing kits, small flashlights, walking sticks,...

Fellowship, Competition, maximize resources, Strength in numbers, Recognition, Learning opportunities.

Fellowship, Competition, maximize resources, Strength in numbers, Recognition, Learning opportunities.

While I appreciate your question Tucker what I do not understand is why you are asking it here. None of us have any authority in the matter. You already understand that his behavior was unscout-like, so why not ask the question of those in your own scouting community who have the responsibility to take action?

The author is evidently unaware of the longstanding tradition of the President of the United States speaking at national Jamborees. While he is entitled to his opinion he was not there and he did not personally witness the overwhelming acceptance and approval of the President that was displayed by the over 70,000 people in attendance.

Not at all Madkins, The executive board of the BSA is made almost entirely of volunteers. But who and what the BSA is is not determined by unit volunteers any more than units are lead by executive board members. Each of us has a role and responsibility to play, as unit volunteers determining what the BSA stands for is not within our authority or responsibility.

Unless I'm mistaken didn't Jesus ask us to follow his example a couple thousand years before Sheldon did? Not that Mr. Sheldon isn't a fine writer but din't God already provide us with a book that explains that point fairly clearly? So the BSA is largely Christian, isn't the country?

Unless I'm mistaken didn't Jesus ask us to follow his example a couple thousand years before Sheldon did? Not that Mr. Sheldon isn't a fine writer but din't God already provide us with a book that explains that point fairly clearly? So the BSA is largely Christian, isn't the country?

Sure they can NJ, And please try to participate in this discussion without the personal assaults. The BSA is whatever the authoritative body of the BSA determines itself to be. It is not required to fit any individual's or group's perception of what it "should" be. The BSA can promote whatever opinion its executive board agrees upon. The only people who need to be in agreement with them are those who voluntarily choose to hold membership or give support. That is what being a private organization is all about. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

NJ As you are well aware I never said that if the BSA made such a radical change that there would not be repercussions, that was not germain to the topic. The question was could the do it. YES, as a private organization thaye have the right and the authority to determine the goals and policies of the organization. They decision has no bearing on there 501c3 status. Even if their decision caused them to lose their congressional charter they would still have the right and the authority to make that decision. IT'S a PRIVATE organization, as ong as they do not break a governing law they can do as they choose.

I have never witnessed anything in an OA ceremony that was in the slightest way offensive to me as a Christian. I'd be happy to check withge the priest in our diocese who is the council's OA Advisor and see how he feels about this but I am pretty confident he doesn't see any conflict.

NJ, Where did I say that anyone "owned" the BSA? My point was that as a unit volunteer our responsibility is not to develop BSA position statements, but to decide by our membership whether or not you agree with the program. God as creator can be found in many references in scouting. Read the passage in the Scout Handbook on "a Scout is Reverent". Scouting has always acknowledged God as creator of the world around us. Do not be constrained by the Judea/Christian explanation of creation. All faiths have a creation story, some very similar to the Old Testament. I am not aware of any religion that gives random coincidence or evolution credit for creation. Scouting also gives credence to scientific studies and encourages scouts to investigate the world around them. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. And there is no reason that the BSA should have to make them so.

I would like to address the original question. Why is it, whenever Bible-believing Christians share their beliefs about homosexuality or other contentious issues of the day, inevitably said Christians are portrayed as ignorant, arrogant, hateful, bigoted, or combination of the all of these? Why care? By that I mean, why even trouble yourself with the question of why do people dislike you for your Christian beliefs? We are not the first generation of Christians to be insulted for our faith, and we will surely not be the last. Do you choose to be Christian because of what others will think of you, or do you choose to be Christian because of what you as an individual think of Christ? See Peter 4:14-16

Ed writes And are you saying that if the executive board of the BSA decides to promote Nazism, that would be OK since the BSA is a private organization? Ed, as base and distasteful as I find your question to be I will answer it so that you might have a clearer understanding of the realities of being a private organization. If the BSA wanted to promote a specific political party then they have every right to and while you are welcome to disagree you have no athority in altering the decision. We have the freedom to choose at any time as to whether or not we wanted to be associated with such an organization that supported that ideology, but as unit volunteers we do not have any authority in forming the ideals of the program. Thankfully the BSA is guided by better men and women than would propose or support such a scenario as you suggest. But if you do not want to the BSA to promote creationism, or if you would not want to be a member of an organization that promoted creationism than you should have quit scouting a long time ago because it always has. On the other hand if you would not want to be a part of an organization that promoted a more scietific view than you should have quit a long time ago as well, because the BSA supports that as well. At no time has the BSA placed one view above the other but allows both to exist side by side. The discussion offered by both Merlyn and Johnson is an attempt to make the BSA choose one over the other, when in fact the BSA is not obligated to make such a determination. There is no reason why the BSA cannot continue to support both science and religion, it has done so for nearly 100 years and neither Merlyn or Johnson have presented any compelling reasons to mandate a change.

It seems that what is being missed by a number of posters is that Boys Scouting and Venturing are independent programs just as Boy Scouting and Cub Scouting. Membership in one program does not make you eligible for the program features and elements of the other. Girls cannot be in OA because there are no girls in the Boy Scout program to join the OA. All the girl members in the BSA are in Venturing and the OA is not an element of the Venturing program. It really is that simple. If at some time the executive board of the OA changes that program element then membership will change. Remember this is a national program, do not assume that just because your council has membership problems that all councils do, or that a national membership policy will be altered based on transitional program numbers that alter from year to year. Remember too that OA events have a far different adult supervision structure than troop activities. Scouts are not required to come with adult supervision from their unit nor are units required to send any adult leadership. Do you really think that it would be a good idea to have co-ed activities under such a loosely supervised structure? Who do you want to hold responsible for any innappropriate activities?

Bob, So you think the BSA should promote creationism? Is that what you are saying? It's so hard to tell. It's not difficult at all if you read my post without predjudice. I did not say that the BSA should teach creationism, I said that the BSA already promotes creationism, and that it also promotes scientific theories, and that at no time does it suggest that one excludes the other. Why is that Bob tries to turn every discussion of what the BSA should do into a discussion of what the BSA can do? Because the question posed suggested that the BSA did not currently promote creationism, when in fact it does...and at its core asks the question of should the BSA promote any specific opinion on matters, and it absolutely has that authority and the responsibility to do so. You cannot maturely discuss what an organization "should do" if you do not first understand what the organization already does. In a restatement of the original question one could ask "Why shouldn't the BSA promote creationalism?" Since the BSA is a private organization who are you to tell them what they should or should not promote as their organization's standards or beliefs? Do not confuse membership with ownership.

The BSA already supports both creationism and evolution in various aspects of its program. It does not state them to be mutually exclusive. But lets get back to the original question. Topic: Should the BSA promote creationism? Answer: The BSA as a private organization can and should promote whatever position on whatever topic that its executive board determines to be representative of the BSA. No one is forced to agree with them or affiliate themselves with any opinion they render. However, those who do agree are welcomed to identify themselves through membership and/or support.

Pete, At no time did I say that or suggest that stealing was appropriate. However, you cannot deny that the scout left laundry unattended and he should't have. Had he stayed with his belongings thay could not and would not have disappeared. You have no evidence that they were stolen, they could very well have been taken to lost and found and are in the virtual mountain of abandoned property that the staff has been trying to identify and return to its righfull owner. But let's remember that in all the lost and found cases the item did not wander off and leave the human behind unattended. It was the human who wandered away from their property that caused every single case. It is easy to balame the unkown "other guy" for the loss but you first need to take some personal responsibility toward your own property. The scout should not have left his property unattended. He shares responsibility in the loss and he could easily have prevented it all together. When a scout comes to me and says his knife was stolen and then tells me that he last saw it when he left it on a pinic table the day before...I have to think it was not stolen...it is more likely lost and in fact...he gave it away. But let me give you anexample of the kind of people who were at jamboree. Someone left a digital camera in our area where we had hundreds of particiapnts nearly all day long, a scout brought it me, we announced that we had it for the owner to identify. A little while later the owner turned up. Funny that socks and underwear might be stolen but not a digital camera. You would have to see the size of the lost and found to appreciate how careless some people are. And yet while I was at Heth I watched dozens of people walk past expensive equipment that had no identification that they could easily have claimed as their own and yet they did not. The vast majority of people at Jamboree were terrific as individuals and as groups. But with the numbers we had there is bound to be a few bad apples. If you are going to be a sloppy camper then you in effect allow yourself to become a victim. Your scout could have made better choices in his behavior that wouold have made the loss of his equipment impossible. As far as the "taj" goes let's remember that staff is camped at numerous sites throughout the jamboree. Different locations have different services available, largely based on the needs and resources of Ft. A.P. Hill. Mahone just happens to have a permanent facility nearby. Staff has some different resources than participants but participants also have far more program avilable to them. We are there to work and to make the program fun for adult and youth participants, a goal which we seem to have met. The resources made available to us are there to help us be prepared to do our jobs the best we can for those we are there to serve. To this point in time, after having met and talked with hundreds of people who were actually there, you are the only person who seems to have a problem with those resources.