Bob White

Is falsifying mebership numbers unethical, yes. But that is not what you claimed. You said it was illegal and that is not true. "So it's OK to claim "Quality Council" status with faked numbers. No, but its not illegal. Mr. Smith did not do his illegal activities at work or on BSA property or on BSA equipment. It had no more bearing on the BSA than it would if you got caught doing something illegal on your on time unrelated to scouting. To try and comnnect his activities to any fault of the BSA is just fear mongering. They could not fire him because he retired prior to being charged with a crime. You have even less knowledge of labor laws than you do of Scouting. You cannot fire someone who is not in your employ. I have no facts about the Idaho case, only hearsay, and unlike you I will not comment without more actual information. Were the people you mentioned involved in any way in determining the quality of your next meeting? If not then why do you not go back to your role as a voluteer, if you have one, and stop using others as excuses for why scouts quit the unit you serve. You are like a scandal tabloid. You scream sensational headlines and contrive stories to entertain those who are unwilling to learn the facts but love a good story.

Do not think that WE (the dedicated scouters) have no influence at the national level, that simply is not true. Conservatively several hundred volunteer scouters, if not thousands of us, have an enormous effect on the program and servicses of the BSA. It's just that none of the whiners do. Do you really think the National committees want to populate themselves with a bunch of gripers? How would they get things done at all? Lots of scouters from all over the country form various national committees on activities, program development, uniforming, advancement, training, commissioning, resource development, camp development. But if you don't ask you won't know that, and if you whine you will never experience it. The folks who get selected and recommended for regional and national service are the ones in your council who quietly get the job done, and they don't spend much time with the curmudgeons of the council. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

cost of values and scouting memories....PRICELESS

The problem is that you are approaching the problem backwards. You asked "Any ideas on how to get kids interested and excited about Venturing? and the fact is....you can't. At least not until you first develop an exciting and interesting Venturing unit.

"BSA is a sinking cruise ship." No, you just know suprisingly little about boats.

I noticed you did not even attempt to factually refute a single point I made. Just because the council you are in may have lost 27% of their adult volunteers you have no evidence as to why each one left, nor do you have any evidence of that figure holding true in any other council or nationally. More importantly you have not proven that those 27% served the scouting program more by their presence than by their absence. You only offer more static.

Cost of uniform soccer 120/12=$10 per event Cubscouts 107.3/104=$1.03 per event Scouting uniform approx. 10X less expensive than the soccer uniform # of recognition in a season Soccer probably 1 Cub Scouts (minimum) 12

JKHNY asks Do you know how many Eagle Badges have been mailed back to BSA by people TRYING to express their displeasure? As a matter of fact I do. Over the years fewer than 100 have returned their Eagle in protest. LAST YEAR ALONE 50,000 SCOUTS EARNED EAGLE. Anyone care to do the math? JKHNY, any guesses as to what percentage of all Eagle Scouts the number of protesters represents? How about if we compared it to the number of Boy Scouts over the years any guesses what the percentage would be? Allow me .0000011 So now let's talk about this statement of jkhny's "BSA is losing some of its most DEDICATED members. Long serving leaders and boys from families with generations in Scouting HAVE walked away. Who were they? I don't know and neither does he. There are over three hundred councils in the BSA, there is no possible way that he has any idea who if any or how many have taken the action he suggests. Even in a small council of say 1500 volunteers you will have hundreds of volunteers come and go each year and there is no way he knows why each left. I know several multi-generation scouters in the district I live in, and none that I know have left because of what he suggests. These accusations are unfounded, and unprovable. It's ranting pure and simple. He goes on to offer that the the currect BSA leadership in Irving is unethical. Who specifically and what did they do in the course of their job that he knows was unethical and what were the actions taken against them? By the way falsifying membership figures is not in itself illegal as jkhny has claimed. It does not become illegal until they gain finances based on the false numbers. He asks "If all the loyal Scouts keep telling the informed dissidents to leave....who's going to change things? The same people who have been responsible for change in the BSA since it began, the dedicated volunteers who replace the whiners, that take the training and do their jobs correctly without ranting. We are a movement of millions each year. Because of our size there will always be complainers. But do not kid yourselves into thinking that they are the ones who serve the youth the best or who serve scouting the most. Like the annoying static on the radio, they are the spaces where there is no program to enjoy not the spots where there is an active signal. You have to decide for yourselves what you would rather listen to. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gern, What you seem to be missing is that the BSA does not ask you to recruit people who do not share BSA's values. Nor does the BSA ask people to volunteer to be leaders in its program if they do not share BSA values. You see the BSA is a PRIVATE organization that has every right to determine who they are and who they are designed to serve, and the program is not designed to serve those who do not agree with its values. It chooses charter organizations based on shared values, the charter organization is supposed to choose leaders based on shared values. No one who has a problem with the BSA's values has to join or is accepted in membership. That's what membership qualifications are all about, not everyone qualifies. No one said "shut your pie hole", what I said was "do your job" before you decide others aren't doing theirs. If you cannot keep scouts in scouting its your unit program that is the problem. If it weren't, then everyone would be losing scouts...and they're not. The real problem is that poor unit programs lose boys faster than good units can recruit. The BSA creates the tools and gives us a workable blueprint, the unit leaders are expected to have the ability to use them properly. Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Most unit leaders only know of council and national by what they hear through rumors or make up themselves. Few take the time to ask and fewer take the time to learn. For instance, some seem surprised that the SE selects the selection committee and that they select persons who often support the SE. Well DUH! The SE has a job to do, why would he or she purposely try to surround themselves with people who will argue with them or cause strife within the committee. He has goals to accomplish on order to feed his family and pay his bills. Who would you expect him (or her) to want to work with. If you are in business are you purposely going to hire people who will interfere with you reaching your goals and objectives? The people on these selection committees understand that the corporation needs a cooperative team effort to be productive, so do not be so shocked when they take that responsibility to heart. The council/district professionals did not get their jobs by being strong program people, for the most part they are their because they are goal oriented administrators. We hired them to focus on infra-structure so that volunteers can focus on program. Membership is a direct reflection of program quality at the unit level. It's doubtful that may who say that the BSA does not meet corporate standards have no ide what the BSA corporate structure is or how they operate, so they nake up what they think it is and then criticize their own fictional world.

Who can share with us who the BSA program says is in a PLC and where that information can be found?

You cannot just read the requirements... you have to read the Handbook. Page 103 explains the reason for the requirement, and the method the scout needs to learn for entering water that is over his head. This is what comes from "completeing advancement requirements" rather than teaching and learning skills, and the scout advancing as he particpates. You have to read the entire handbook not just the requirement pages.

You want more boys in scouting??? Then you should focus on having better unit meetings. Follow the program better. Keep the promise of scouting. Learn your job and do it the best it can be done, then worry about forming an opinion about what you think others should be doing.

And here I grew up believing that Shakespeare was the real person that the words came from, and Dick the butcher was a fictional character.

This year the Jamboree base cost was I believe $595. Any amount over that was charged by the local council to cover their customized trip. Transportation is indeed the major cost factor.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Excecise should be promoted to scouts as part of a healthy lifesty;e not as a punishment. It ereally doesn'y matter that the military uses it as a punishment, they have a different goal, purpose and methods than scouting has. Scout leaders need to realize which program they are in.

It is impossible to tell what the BSA's decision will be, however being that physical violence was involved I would not be surprised if caused him to be rejected. All you can do is to tell the truth and see what happens. Amd yes if he does not put it on his application you should notify the CR or IH of what you know.

You know Eamonn I think getting involved in Sea Scouting is the perfect thing for you and OJ (it's funny how closely our scoutinh paths have paralleled each other). It is a natural progression for both of you. You have been a scout, a Cub leader, a Scout leader, a district leader, know it's time to complete the scouting cyle and for the two of you to graduate to a senior program. My son and I have found some of our best adventures in scouting since joining last year. A know another poster tried to give the impression that Sea Scouting is a shrinking segment. Actually since 2002 its been one of the fastest growing with a yout and unit incresa of about 20%. So put on your work tans and get your Mate training, we will meet again at jambo in 2010. There is a plan starting up to have a quiet display of Sea Scoutings strength when we all put on our dress whites for Sunday breakfast and church service. Fair winds and calm seas, BW HEY TERRY!! How about a Sea Scouting forum???

I have never said that the professionals or volunteers of the BSA were infallible. But I am willing to figure, that while not perfect, the folks who have put on an event for 50,000 people on numerous occassions know more about what it takes to do it then those who have NEVER done it. I would hope that thinking and discussing would take place more often than second guess...but alas.

Do you really have so little regard for the volunteers and professional who have already started the 2010 planning that you think they are going to wait till the 11th hour before they knw where the jamboree will be held? Thankgoodness they think better of us then some seem to think of them. They haven't even announced detail ne of the next jamboree and you are already second guessing them.

Denalon, You will not find the personal concern expressed by proud Eagle is not a concern of the BSA. They have had co-ed scouting for decades in our older scout programs. The concern is of the litigious nature of a large percentage of our adult population in the US culture. It's is not the kids who cannot be trusted. Remember the wisdom of Shakespeare "The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers!"

If AP Hill is ruled out of bounds then so is every state and federally owned property, and that's about the only places being suggested so far on this thread outside of Philmont.

John in KC is absolutely right on the money.

emb01 The National Boatswain is a youth officer I was refering to the adult executive committee positions at council and national level, I never addressed the youth leadership structure. Nor did I ever say that there was an organizational chart at Scouting.org, you will have to take that up with BackPacker. I had a converstaion at Jambo with a member of the Western Region Sea Scout Committee, I invetigated what he explained to me and found he was accurate. By the way I cannot find the term "cracker jack" or "chambray" uniform anywhere in the handbook? Sorry Mike but your ship was guided off course. "Now, over on the Sea Scouts website (www.seascouts.org), we see this... The site you identify is not the national Sea Scout website, it is not even an official BSA web site, in fact it doesn't show the Sea Scout logo, makes no mention of affiliation to the BSA and asks for donations to help operate the site, definitely not a BSA standard. If you want the official site for the BSA Sea Scout program it is found at http://www. seascout.org and it makes no mention of the things stated on the unofficial site. It does however have a detailed history of Sea Scouting and Exploring/Venturing and you you will see that my timeline was accurate. Also you will see that the Venturing committee does not select the National Commodore, as the Sea Scout Executive Committee selected the Commodore two months before the Director of Venturing was selected back in 1998. I suggest that to maintain the quality of accuracy you desire in your website that you consider using official BSA resources rather than other unofficial web sites.

Heck Mike lots of units do things wrong, there are Venturing crews today that hold OA elections even though they are not eligible. I was an Explorer in the 70s and a Scoutmaster in the 80s and Explorers were not eligible for OA elections then.

Now I really am baffled Kahuna. If you agree that AP Hill works, and that there is no sense to move for movings sake, and that the problem will be resolved in the BSA's favor, and that moving will add further expense, then where exactly is the "dereliction of duty" on anyones part by remaining at AP Hill?