Bob White

Hi Rick, I think it looks great so far! The next step I think will depend on what you want the purpose of the site to be. Is this to be a training tool in itself, or is it to be an informational site to motivate scouts to attend and to inform of training dates and locations distribute registration forms etc.?

As has been pointed out it is not that the schools can't be sponsors, it is that they most probably will not due to the coersive behavior of the ACLU and their threats to take any school that supports any organization such as scouting that might teach traditional values to court.

On the contrary Ed. You have professed to be 'trained' a "trainer" and a "commissioner". How could you NOT be aware of the various responsibilities of the various administative levels of scouting and yet be trained, train others, and perform commissioner responsibilities? How do you teach what you do not know? How can you say I did not answer? My responses are there to read with the responsibilities listed, I cannot however find your list. I now know that you after several years as a trainer...you never knew! I hope teeth are grinding. I also hopes that handbooks are finally being read.

Actually backpacker I am well aware of the actual color of the sky. It is clear. The colors we see are due to the filtering effect the atmoshere has on sunlight. If a Girl Scout troop sells $1,000 worth of cookies, and the Boy Scout troop Sells $1,000 worth of popcorn, who would make more profit? You see comparing net profit to equal unit gross sales will tell you which product is more profitable. Total gross sale would be nearly impossible to do since Popcorn, unlike cookie sales is not a national program. By the way the Boy Scout Troop would make more. And I never said two girl scout leaders. Once again when you lack facts you make up what suits your opinion. BW

John Your questions were answered. I cannot help that you do not like the answers. As you have discovered by simply looking at some basic training information the national council has specific responsibilities (and as I pointed out in the current training curriculumn this information is in New Leader Essentials and in the years prior to NLE was in every basic training course for each program). If you watch the video tape for New Leader Essentials you would have a more complete list. Such as...national/regional inspects and certifies camping facilities and camp programs. So you see when you say national isn't doing its job, you first need to understand what their job is. Things like the quality of the local program is not national's responsibility, whereas developing the pogram and its resources are. If you want to say that the program isn't good that would be a difficult concept to prove since the program has developed and succeedded for almost a hundred years, and the resources are certainly abundant. The problems that most posters complain about and blame national for are as you can now see.. not what national does. If your local program suffers than you need to follow the program better or get leaders who will. National supports the council, if your council isn't supporting you then that is a problem in your local independent council corporation...not national. Almost every problem presented on this board is a result of a person or persons in the unit not following the program. Look at what you have learned in only a few hours by using BSA resouces that have always been available to you. National/Regional 1. Supports local councils. 2. Conducts program research and development. 3. Develops literature and materials. 4. Provides professional training. 5. Operates national high-adventure and training facilities. 6. Conducts national events such as jamborees. 7. Maintains standards for the organization 8. Inspects and certifies camps 9. Sets policies for safety, membership, advancement, uniform 10. Grants council charters 11. Develops and determines the uniforms of the programs 12. Responsible for registering and maintaining membership records 13. Makes an annual report to congress on the staus of the movement 14. Develops and produces advancement recognitions and awards. You also need to understand that only a small portion of this is done by scouting profesionals or paid support staff. The majority is done by volunteer committees selected for their abilities, experience and positive atitudes toward scouting and the youth it serves. And imagine that all this is taught in the first 90 minutes of a scout leaders training. See you we are always saying how important training is?

Weavers is not the only brand of Popcorn used by councils and since popcorn sales is not a national product there is no actual national tally. I have been involved in selling two different varieties and the GP averaged 67% which was split either 50/50 with units or 60/40 with the unit getting the larger portion. Most Girl Scout Leaders I have spoken with say that their troop s do not make anywhere near rthe profits from cookie sales that BSA units make on popcorn. No gasket popping here I just think that its about time some posters account for the accuracy of the stuff they put out there.

What a persons salary is is not a "responsibility" as requested. It might help you to look into an official BSA reference or resource.

"BW, just what exactly should a trained Scouter who knows, and is successful at, his/her role but has concerns about policy, National's organizational structure and decision-making do? The question assumes that such a scouter would have those concerns, and that is seldom the case. Why would a scouter who is successful at their position be worrying about the structure at national? Why would a successful scouter need to worry about national policy? If the policies were a hinderance then they wouldn't be successful would they, at least not according to some of the posters here who say that national policy is the cause of all our problems. Does a successful McDonalds manager worry about the corporate structure of McDonalds or about servicing the customers lined up at their window? Successful leaders have learned what the role is of each level of scouting and make use of the resources created for them, follow the program developed for them and nurture the values of scouting in those they serve. "Bob -- can you educate the ignorant masses No I can't. In fact I doubt anyone can, after all isn't that what makes them ignorant masses? It is not lack of information that makes them ignorant, for information is readily available. It is their inability to learn, or their choice to not seek the information that keeps them ignorant. Lots of us are capable of educating people who want to learn about Scouting and who ask questions seeking answers. But those who lack the will to learn but choose to gossip and conjure up their own false scenarios of what they "think" is the truth are doomed to wallow in their own self-imposed ignorance. Over tha past few years I and others have given factual information only to have it rejected because the readers ignorance was more comfortable than the truth. Their ignorance allows them to continue to use others as a scapegoat for their own problems. Can I tell you the top ten responsibilities. Probably not. I can tell you 10 responsibilities of the National/Regional level, but what is "top" is a subjective determination that would be different for different people based on their person needs, priorities and roles. Better yet, rather than hear it from me who you do not believe, you could attend New leader Essentials the very first step in all adult training in scouting in every program level, where the roles and responsibilities of each level are explained. In fact the roles of national/regioanal Scouting has for decades been explained in all levels od basic training in scouting, how can any 'trained" leader on this board not know them and how they differ from council/district and unit responsibilities? OR A number of the malcontented posters here have said they are thoroughly trained and knowledgable in scouting. And since you seem to align yourself with them more often it seems only fitting that they be allowed the first opportunity to list the responsibilities of the National/Regional Level of scouting as they know it to be. So how about it boys? Who would like to give a clear, objective, ACCURATE list of the responsibilities of the National/Regional level of Scouting? Ed? Back Packer? Jkhny? Prairie Scouter? TJHammer? SemperParatus? madkins007? What say you?

You have no more ability to give him more money than you have to give him less. It is not your responsibility and likely will never be.

"BSA in court cases of the past decade has taken a very public stance on some of its social policies." As oppossed to what? Going to court and taking a secreet stance on their position? "As a result, funding organizations, such as United Way, has pulled funding in some cases. Yes, but only in some cases. In fact many organizations have been reduced or cut out by UW simply because many local UWs have shifted their attention to other types of services. "The military is no longer allowed to support Scout units. Untrue "Public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units. Absolutely untrue. "Membership is down," Oonly slightly and membership has wained at other times in the BSAs 95 year history and has always recovered. "and this decrease can't be explained by a general drop in available youth population. In can in some councils. " Something is causing youth to opt out of Scouting;" You mean like the quality of the individual unit program? "responsibility for the health of the national organization lies at the top." So why not let them deal with it and you do the job YOU are responsible for? "While regional differences may occur (we are fortunate to have been able to maintain our membership rates over the past couple of years), nonetheless, the membership level across the nation is down. You already said that, and my response is the same...so what? It's been down before and come back. memberships in most organizations is cyclical. "In the big picture, how can you say that this doesn't affect all of us at some level? " Easily, because you have zero evidence that it does. "Before Sears was bought out by Kmart, they had many stores that were doing very well; unfortunately, they had many more that weren't doing very well at all. This ultimately led to an overall weakness that made them an acquisition target. Adverse conditions and errant business strategy don't necessarily affect an organization equally across the board. If your strategy damages enough of your business "branches", it's possible for the entire organization to collapse, even while some branches are still making profits. So, while we may not all be suffering (which is not what I said in my post), we do all have a stake in what is happening (which *is* what I said in my post). What you failed to mention was that the stake you own is at the unit level not at national. If you want to effect membership than have a better unit meeting and better activities. An SE in Atlanta has no effect on your skill or lack of skill as a program leader.

The "attack" is not an attack at all it is a complaint, that you (and or others) think that the head of a corporation makes more than you think he or she deserves when you have little or no idea of what their resonsibilities or function in the corporation is or for that matter what and who the corporation is. It's envy. If you made what the head of any similar size corporation made you would not give this topic a second thought.

I mentioned this to an army Colonel at National Jamboree after a few members of the Army Old Guard Drill Team were introduced as former Eagle Scouts. His response was "Sir, they are now soldiers in the U.S. Army, you may have them back as Eagle Scouts when they leave us." Works for me.

No, asking "do you believe in God" is not an offensive question it is simply an innapropriate one for the purpose of a Board of review. There is no advancement requirement related to the question. The advancement requirement is that the Scout does his duty to God and is Reverent toward God. You should ask about those requirements if you are to conduct the board correctly. The BoR is not responsible for determining membership requirements, only advancement.

Actual First Class Emphasis does involve a degree of segregation from the two other patrol levels in the troop to be effective. Since the New Scout Patrol will be concentrating on very basic skills, if you do not separate them you will bore your regular patrols into leaving. They have already learned their First Class skills, they are in the new adventure mode and have no interest in rreliving last years program over again. If the New Scout Patrol does everything that the experienced patrols do then you remove the anticipation and adventure of things to come.

"SEs should have finite terms of office, subject to renewal based on performance and results." All SE's are contract employees of the local council. Each council can determine the conditions and goals of the contract. What you want already exists.

The National Advancement committee (made of volunteers from across the country) meets as I recall twice a year to review the advancement program. Send your recommendations to To the National Office in Irving, TX. Attn: Cub Scout Advancement Committee.

Williams is a corporation director who makes a fraction of what executives of a similar size organization in a commercial company would make. If you had the skills to operate a company with thousands of employees, millions of customers, and the assets that the BSA had then you would make that much money or more. Salary envy is unbecoming in a scout leader.

SEs should have finite terms of office, subject to renewal based on performance and results. All Se's are contract employees of the local. Each council can determine the conditions and goals of the coontract. What you want already exists.

Rick, I have read your posts here and on other scouting sites, it's good to see you here. Based on what I have read your views will be in the minority here but that doesn't mean you aren't correct (just in the minority ). Welcome, I look forward to our exchanges. Bob White

"The GSUSA has huge money contributor in the cookie sales. Our popcorn sales can't even come close." Another great example of replacing facts with opinion. ItsMe, Please tell us what facts you have to support your statement. What was the gross sales for Girls Scout Cookie sales and then for the Boy Scout Popcorn sales for the year 2004. Also, tell us what the gross profit was for the product sales for each program since it is very easy to have greater profits from lower sales based on the products GP%. Next. Tell us how many BSA councils use Popcorn as opposed to other fundraising products since Popcorn is NOT a national program.

You cannot blame his sin on his employer simply because it happened to be the BSA. After a thorough investigation by the FBI, THEY not the BSA, determined that he never did his act while at work, on work properties, on work equipment nor did he involve any scout or scouts, and he did not use his role in scouting in any way during the crime. You cannot rationally make this a BSA issue. He did not create the BSA position on avowed homosexuality, nor was he responsible for its implementation. So the fact that he agreed with it is irrelevent, millions of people agree with it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The effect on us all, tho, is that as the National office goes along on it's way, what it does, does have an effect on us. As they marginalize Scouting, funding is affected, participation is affected, and we all have a stake in that." There is no proof of that. If what Prairie Scouter wrote was true then why aren't all councils affected the same? We all have the same national regulations. We all get or don't get the same services. So why are some districts and councils thriving while others are stagnant or suffering. If the problem was indeed at the national level it should have the same effect on everyone. The council I volunteer in has had membership and financial growth every year for the last 7 years. I know of others who are doing as the same as well. IF we ALL suffer then why are we not all suffering?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's not that I turn a blind eye to the press it's that I do not rely on the press to learn about the structure and the responsibilities of scouting at its various levels. If you got arrested for a crime that had no involvement with scouts, no involvement with your role or responsibility as a scout leader, didn't happen on or with scout properties, it would be loudicrous to think it reflected in any way on the scouting program. Lots of people commit crimes without it having anything to do with where they work. Why are you so focused on trying to make his persons crime a scouting problem? To say that I said it was "OK for for Smith to be be caught with child pornography because it was on his own time" is a lie. I never said that or even suggested it and anyone who reads my post will see that I neither said it or implied it. That was a ruthless insult and it should struck from your post. Words and their meanings matter. Jkhny is one of a few posters who make statements that are blatantly false. He said that the action was illegal, a very specific and well known term. The fact is its not illegal. I agree its not ethical, but ethics and law are often two different things. Each Scout Council is an independent corporation owned, operated, and served by the community in encompasses. I do not live far from you Prairie Scouter and you cannot tell me that what happenes in Atlanta has ANY effect on the quality or resources of your local program. I trust the people of Atlanta are perfectly capable of managing their own council. What I do in my roles in this council has no effect on them or they on me. To use them as an excuse for your own problems is ridiculous. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I again suggest that if a chess club decides to be a chartered organization for a youth chess club and obtain a Boy Scout charter from their local council to do so, then they can go ahead and dispense with uniforms, the outdoor program, advancement and other things altogether. And if they have a good youth chess program, it may be quite succesful. So then what would they need the charter for?

Q: What constitutes a jump? How much air should be required? Is a step off the side sufficient? Is a hop okay? I expect an Eagle Scout should be capable of diving off the cliffs at Acapulco...should I protest if a swim test is administered without a 136 foot jump? What about feetfirst? Does an amputee need to seek an exception? Do both feet need to hit the water at the same time, otherwise one foot is first and the other is second? A: READ THE HANDBOOK!