Bob White

What jkhny post completely ignores is that the BSA is not responsible for people becoming sexual predators. The BSA does not teach people to behave in such a way. It has probably never occured to him, or perhaps he has not attended or remembered the lessons of Youth Protection, but sexual predators seek out opportunities to join organizations that can give them the opportunity to groom and abuse children. The fact that they use the BSA as a vehicleis not the fault of the BSA, but a reality that the BSA has worked to inform and educate adult and youth mebers about in order to make it as unhospitable an environment as possible for predators to operate in. But the BSA did not select these poeple as leaders. All the BSA can do is check to see if there are existing criminal records. Deciding who these people are and what there character is falls to the repsonsibility of THE UNIT and THE CO. As I keep reminding you the quality of the leadership in scouting is dependent on the quality of the people selected and recruited by the local CO and unit. Remember that Smith's crime was not sexual abuse, and there is no evidence or charge that he had any illicit contact with any child at any time. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of criminals that have used their role as scout leaders, teachers, ministers, priests, police officers, relatives, trusted friends, to sexually assault children. Child sexual abuse is not a scouting crime, or a Catholic crime, and to present it as such is a clumsy misrepresentation of the truth.

That is not the point Ed, the point is that it is not within the council or national's authority to select and approve unit leaders. The IH is responsible for approving the CR and CC and they are responsible for approving all other leaders. It is not the BSA's unit it is the CO's. It is the BSA's program. The BSA can offer training but it's up to the individual to go, and learn. If the unit has not selected the right people no amount of training will make a meaningful difference. If a scout leader is a criminal the BSA did not train him or her to be one, they were that way when the unit CHOSE them. The selection of leaders needs to be taken more seriously than (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Often the abuse will not happen at the meetings or games. Those times are used by the abuser to build trust with the child in order to make the opportunity for abuse at another time and location.

Rarely does someone die suddenly of an illness without symptoms. Usually as an illness begins symptoms are detectable, the patient weakens and without treatment dies. Sometimes the process is short sometimes long, either way the patient is ill and getting worse unless treated. That's your pack. The leaders cannot be short-sighted and say "we see this, this, and this are wrong, but look we have 100+ boys!". Eventually, perhaps quickly, perhaps slowly, the pack will die from the problems you already know of.

Ed There were an estimated 100,000 cases of child sexual abuse reported in 2004, and who knows how many unreported. You do not possible have enough knowledge of these cases to even know how many included ministers and priests, let alone have enough knowledge to make such a reckless statement that the majority of those were Catholic. That was incredibly irresponsible and narrow minded.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Madkins You misunderstand the 'shared responsibilities" agreement in scouting. Unit leaders are selected by the charter organization. The BSA cannot tell a unit that they cannot resgiter someone if they meet the joining requirements. It is the COs responsibility to select and recruit it is the councils job to train. "Things like the buddy system, two deep leadership, the Patrol Method, that a complete uniform is a Method of scouting, etc., need to be presented in a formal setting by district and council trainers." Have you NEVER been to training? That is exactly what has been presented at adult leader training for decades! As far as the unit trainer positon, that has existed for years in troop and pack scouting. But again, it is the unit's and CO's responsibility to select and recruit leaders. If the unit does not select a trainer there is little that the council or national can do about it. If they have a trainer and they do not do their job properly there is nothing that the BSA can do about it. How agressively training is offered is up to the council and district, thats their job not national's. National's role is to develop and distribute the training resouces to the councils. National also makes some training available at the national level but it is the unit's and council's responsibility to get people to go there. Again that is why thoughtful leadership selection is so important.

And yet councils immediatly surrounding the Chicago Council are doing so much better? They have the same program, they have the same regional support, the same national services? Yet they have growth. Why is that? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Perhaps you have not had any unit leadership experience but I have never had a den, pack or troop meeting that depended on Corporate giving, the paid staff at any level of scouting, or affected by 'social approval'. Nor was the recruitment in the units I served ever affected by anything other the quality of the program we delivered. There are no doubt as many or more parents who keep their children from scouting because they were unfortunate enough to have a bad scout leader as there are those that steer away because of the latest media craze. I have little control over news stories but I can control the quality of the program I help deliver. So rather than complain or worry over what you cannot control why not focus on what you can? Learn the actual program, deliver it as it is designed, keep the promise of scouting. That is the responsibility of a unit volunteer.

It is nearly impossible to control what people do wrong when it is by their own choice. You can only explain what is right and hope that the character of the selected leaders will guide them to follow the program and procedures.

"Almost all of the ministers (priests) who were abusing kids were Catholics & going to church for Catholics is required. Scouting isn't a requirement for youth." WHAT?????!!! Where do you get this dribble? "Almost all the ministers abusing kids were Catholics"? I can think of few million people you owe a big apology to after you yank your foot out of your mouth. I would love to see the data you have that drove you to say something as base as that. As far as going to church being "required", were you aware that according to a national study by the Catholic church that the latest estimates are that only 18% of Catholics in the US attend church regularly? It is not a requirement. There are no church police, no one strips you of your catholicism. There is no earthly fine or imprisonment. Going to church is a choice based on person values, and a sense of duty and reverence. Sounds a little like scouting now doesn't it Ed? Why is it so hard for you to see that to a scout as well as to the parents the only thing they judge scouting by is the unit meetings and activities of their local unit? How can you not know that scouts do not stay in units with bad leaders or poor programs?

madkins writes "As far as improving the leaders, my best suggestion would be to simply require SOME form of training (more than Fast Start ideally) before the badges can be obtained. This would probably require some reworking of the training program, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. It would be nice to figure out some way to require annual recertification as well. The trained strip is not earned for completeing Fast Start (no recogognition is earned for Fast Start). The Trained badge represents that the wearer has completed BASIC training for their position of responsbility and is only earned after all basic courses are complete. That can be as few as 5 hours of training or as much as about 25 hours depending on your position. Recertification can be required by the charter organization is they so choose. The thing that is being overlooked with the seeding new troops is that troops are OWNED by a Charter Organization. You cannot take money that does not legally belong to you and use it to start a unit you have no authority to start. As unit leaders you serve your charter organization. You can no more start a new troop elsewhere than the choir director at one church could take the church's money and equipment and send some members to another church to start a choir for them. You belong to your CO your, you serve their program. Starting new units is not the responsibility of unit leaders, it is a function of the District Committee that serves scouting in your comunity. The BSA has no authority to split a tropp or pack any more than they can tell the VFW that their ladies Auxiliary is too large and has to split. It is not the BSA's unit, it is the BSA's program, they cannot tell the unit to split. As Unit Leaders our job is the quality of our next unit meeting not starting units elsewhere. The DE along wioth the membership, training, and commissioners staff have the responsibility to find and develop new Charter Organizations to grow the program. If the District approaches your CO and asks for a donation to help a new unit that is forming and your CO can help that's great. If you are asked by the District to mentor a new leader and you are willing...thats great. If you want to learn how to start new units at new charter organizations then you should ask to join the membership committee of the District Committee. Remember that starting new units has nothing to do with improving the quality of the program, it merely gives more opportunity to more scouts to participate. It still takes selecting the right people in leadership positions for the program to be delivered properly.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thats silly. Teachers have been found guilty of sex crimes and millions of kids go to school each day. Ministers ahve been found guilty and millions of kids go tio church every Sabbath. To think that a parents in Oklahoma pull kids from scouts because a Scout leader in Michigan was arrested is just not reasonable. Parents keep kids out of scouts when the local program is bad. Troops that do not follow the BSA program struggle to keep 6 or 7 scouts total while units that follow the program are always welcoming more and more scouts. Its all about the troop program. Blaming others for a unit's inability to deliver scouting is just a smoke screen to draw attention away from the real problem, local leadership.

Actually CNY what you describe is very much how the BSA is organized, using COs as franchises, offering a specific program and set policies and procedures to help establish similar but unique program opportunities, standardized training, mentoring through commissioning services. Here is where the uncontrollable factor is in scouting as compared to McDonalds. McDonalds PAYS their front-line workers to follow the program and can threaten them with the loss of that income if they do not. The BSA has no choice, due to their Charter Concept, but to rely on the individual character of the leaders as selected and approved by the COs. Everything depends on the personal quality of the individual leader. As you can see there are many who volunteer who do not like the scouting program, who refuse to learn the scouting program, or who refuse to follow the scouting program. As long as the COs OWN the units we will forever have this problem. The only hope is to constantly remind the CO just how important selecting the right people are. We need to choose more wisely.

Hunt I and other have often engaged in meaningful and helpful conversations, but when posters such as jkhny offer nothing but rants and generalizations there is no way to respond to this issue since the issue is so poorly represented. The only option left is to show the flaw in the rant itself. The solution to improving membership is obvious. The local unit has to do a better job delivering the program. Kids do not know about the BSA when they join, they know the promise and expectations of scouting that are in the handbook. If you want more scouts you need to do a better job of scouting in the unit. For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can think that a SE who give a false membership report in Atlants ahs anu effect at all on the quality of your next meeting, and that is all the scout cares about.

So which employees of the non profit organizations do you feel are over-paid. And who do you suppose is responsible for determining their salaries?

Oh for pete's sake Ed, read his first post again. It's a fairy tale he concocted to support unsupportable conclusions. Ed.. just be cause jhnky writes that the BSA is a cruise doesn't mean it really is. There isn't really a boat Ed! So how can anything he said be proven or disproved, it is as one other poster said...all kaka.

It is the same Cub Scout uniform inspection sheet used by the pack. Contact your local scout office for the forms.

I too have taught this course since it was released. As mentioned it takes 3 hours. The course covers an overview of the structure of local scouting including the responsibilities of the CO and Committee, explanations of each committee position, an interactive game, an overview of the committee meeting, Q&A, and an evaluation. It is an excellent course designed for the entire committee to take at the same time. Our District schedules the course at the request of the unit committee, we explain the time needed (2 hours for New Leader Essentials, 3 hours for Troop Committee Challenge). We meet where and when the troop requests.

I appreciate your frustration Fscouter, but if an intruder breaks into my home do not think me rude or ill mannered if I repel his efforts. If I see someone attack a friend I am not being unfriendly for beating him back, I am being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, to protect and defend my friend. The Scout Oath we take is not there to protect those who attack you, it is there to remind us of our responsibility to defend those we honor, friends, family, country, God, and those in need of our help. jhnky is none of those things. Standing up to the likes of jhnky, who has had nothing but ill to say of the BSA, is what being loyal and brave as a scout is about. All I have asked is for the sources and data to support the statements that he bases his conclusions on. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Flame me if you want but you have not put forth any profit margins on GS cookies where as Scoutnut said their unit makes .85 on a $4 sale. That is as he pointed out about 21.5% GP, where the lowest GP I have ever seen for the unit share of popcorn is 33% and as high as 40%. Now the number of members in a troop of Girls Scouts compared to the number of scouts in a troop is irrelevant to this discussion. The scenario I offered was simply $1000 in cookie sales compared to an equal amoount sold in popcorn and which made more. Have you evidence that the GSUSA offers a GP% greater than 33%? Have you any evidence of the total popcorn sales nationwide for the BSA? If not then your entire argument is dead in the water.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

GOTA= Grabbed Outta Thin Air Ed The question here is not what evidence do I have, The question is what evidence does HE have. To this point he has not offered one iota of factual data to support a single conclusion he has put forward. He makes wild accusations leading him to unprovable conclusions. And you will notice that I am not the only to have seen through his charade. You are simply one of a few who as yet have not.

"What IS the purpose of BSA? and is it succeeding at that purpose? IS it serving and supporting its volunteers? In most Councils it is, but in a significant number (10-20%) it is not." Which specific 32 to 64 councils do you refer to and how did you come by that figure? (GOTA no doubt?). Again you have no data to support anything you state. Also jkhny Volunteers outnumber professional by over 100 to 1. Wouldn't raising the quality of volunteers have a much greater impact on the program?

I am not the least bit angry over this Back Packer, and I am sure that any emotional state I may be in is of no real concern to you. What bothers you more is that I'm right...again.

I also said that some unit scouters are asked to serve at other levels of the program, and they do need an understanding of what other levels do and how they are structured.

That is a correct response CNY Scouter, you now have control of the board and may choose the next category!