Bob White

NEVER EVER give a dosage that is anything other than the physician described dosage. If the parents want to alter it then have them get a doctors order changing it. NEVER EVER give a dosage different than a doctor has ordered. Better yet, follow the recommendations of the BSA. If the scout is not capable of taking his own medication then a parent or legal guardian must be there to administer it. The BSA neither requires or recommends that a leader be responsible for administering prescribed medications to a scout.

pjzedalis Did you like the Eagle Charge you recieved when you earned Eagle? If so then calm down. No one has asked for your Eagle award back. No, if you met the requirements at the the time no one is going to come take it. No, if you were to announce you were gay today no ones is going to come and take it. You do not have to like some one elses Eagle Charge nor do you have to snap at them because of it. Your Eagle was presented to you in a kind and respectful manner, you could at least consider holding on to it the same way.

Tell the parents what you observed and then you have to allow them to parent their son. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I cannot really answer your questions but let me ask you some knew ones. 1 If you were the chairman of a pack committee would you rather choose your own committee members or have them inserted by the local District Executive into your committee? 2 How would you feel toward that "inserted" committee member? 3 Do you think it is right for your DE to ask a new volunteer to help a failing pack, AND help with a special needs troop? 4 Knowing the pack was failing what did the DE think you could accomplish by putting you in without putting you in-charge? 5 What good is recruiting boys into a failing unit if you haven't first addressed why it is failing? Simply having more boys who can quit is not an improvement. and finally What authority do you have to change any of this at this time? Here are my suggestions. Go to the DE and say you will do one job, which does he want you to do. If it is the pack then go to the committee chair and ask her for her honest assesment on the health of the unit. Then ask what specifically she plans to do to change the current course, and when will dhe be done. If you do not agree with her decision or methods then go find another pack (fast). If you agree instead to help the special needs unit there is special training and resources available from national. Ask your DE to get you what you need to suceed, if he doesn't know what that is... refuse the offer. I would find a volunteer I liked and trusted, and then join their unit. Work in a healthy unit for a couple years and learn the program. Then take on bigger challenges. Good Luck BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Did the shirt have a fleur d'lis on it, the words Boy Scouts of America, or the letters BSA? If not then the shirt does not qualify (although I agree it is funny).

Prairie Even the generic "you" never made the comment you did. You made it up and you attributted it being said by someone else, the fact is it was your statement and it was inaccurate. What the public percieves is largely out of all of our hands. As Ed showed us with his comment on Catholics and abuse, the general public seems willing to believe whatever the media tells them nowdays. What we can control is how we act in our roles in the program, and the fact is that whatever poor leadership we have was invited in by the CO's and until they take their responsibilities seriously we will continue to be hampered by their poor selections. Ed, I don't know where to begin with your post other than recommend you return to basic training and get caught up to where scouting is today, which by the way in the case of charters is pretty much exactly how it was done in 1916. Why it has taken 89 years for you to hear about it is a mystery. Whether the BSA owns the units or the COs it would have no effect on what the ACLU complained about, only WHO they complained about. What in the world makes you think that if the BSA owned the units that the ACLU wouldn't still be making efforts to restrict scouting anyway they could. Don't you get it? It's Duty to God that the ACLU is fighting, not who owns the unit. Your job as commissioner is to represent the BSA in your community, not alter it. But to do that job you have to know and understand the progran you are representing. Your lack of understanding in this basic information is frightening. I would expect this of an untrained volunteer, but you have had ample opportunity and exposure to this information. That you want others to be responsible for your job is unfortunate to say the least. It is that same attitude within unit leaders that have caused much of todays headlines.

What about the fact that there already is a "dress" uniform and it consists of a blazer, slacks and tie?

If there were 1 or 100 what difference would it make?

A slight correction to praiire scouters last post. Not "acording to BSA literature" but according to the BSA, who has the sole authority to determine the BSA uniforms. The literatuire is simply a way to help communicate those policies. The paperwork is not the authority, the BSA is. It is an important distinction.

If you want congressional literature contact congress. For the charter concept to change the congressional charter would need to change, and there is no motivation for doing so. The BSA wants the units to be responsible for their side of the charter. If you are familiar with that fact sheet then you should also be familiar twith the point I keep making that is clearly refered to on the sheet (though obscured evidently as if by magic from the view of some scouteres) that the CO is specifically responsibly for the selection of adult leaders. So the Program is franchised just as CNY suggested. COs lease the program oon an annual basis through a contract agreement wherein each party agrees to specifc responsibilities. To this point the majority of problems raised on this forum fall on the COs side of the contract NOT the BSA's.

The assets of a council and the assets of the BSA are not the same. The council is an independent corporation from the BSA. The BSA does not own your camps. The Council owns your camps, unless it is a national camp within your council such a Philmont. A council has assets, they also have income and expenditures. One way that a council can gain income is by converting physical assets to cash income. For instance. A council can no longer afford to operate munltiple properties. So they take the property that is either the most difficult to upgrade, the most valuable on the market, or has the least program potential (or a blending of each) and they sell it to generate funds to improve other camps or program areas or to reduce debt. Not every council is selling camps, some even buy camps, most take the money and improve the camp they have. My own council used to have 5 we now have one. That was done nearly 23 years ago, so you see selling camps is nothing new. Councils have bought and sold or gained properties on and off for decades. We now have a very good one. We are now finally out of debt partly caused by trying to operate and develop more properties than we could afford. But the important thing is Not a single scout suffered. No scout quit, although a few cranky leaders did (but they were a pain in butt even before the properties were sold) no troop stopped going camping, they just went other places. Today few scouts or scouters even knew those properties existed. Life goes on just fine thank you. In Kilworth you have these options 1 Keep the property as it drains your resources and the heirs get nothing. 2 Give the property away for free and stop the drain but gain nothing for the property while giving the heir land you invested in. (I'll just bet you'd have a fit about that as well but we don't get to find out.). 3 Cooperate with the heirs so that the Council gets need funds and the family gets a portion of the inheritance. (Seems fair all around.) I realize of the three you would choose #1. But that would be an irresponsible decision for those trusted with the council's long range financial health. It is the responsibility of the board of directors (who make no personal income from the decision) to do what is best in the long run for their scouting community, not what will appease the emotions of volunteers. This is a business decision. I offer this without the slightes possibility of you learning from it but in the hopes that other, more sensible folks, will. I grew up in the Chicago are we rarely camped in the same campground twice, many are still there. Rather than weep over not being able to go to Owasippe why not grab your pack and go somewhere else, it's a big world. What exactly do you do in scouting besides complain? I would love to talk with you about that.

You will have to ask the ACLU why they make that error, I cannot answer for them. Look at the very quote you ended with..read it carefully and you will see that it says exactly what I explained to you.... "Scouting units owned and operated by chartered organizations" Owned and operated by the CO, NOT by the BSA. The BSA OWNS the program, they do not operate units. Leadership selection is not the BSA's responsibility. If your IH,CR, CC selected poor leaders shame on them. That was their mistake not the BSA's. I really do not know how anyone can make this any clearer to you.

Semper, for the sake of brevity I will refer you to this BSA fact sheet. http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-507.html Please take special note of the two items that follow the line that reads "When community organizations establish a new unit, they must take these two important actions to ensure a quality Scouting program: that appears under the heading How Community Organizations Use the Scouting Program This information can also be found by attending New Leader Essentials, a 2-hour course that explains the history, methods and structure of scouting. Prior to 2001 this information was a part of all basic leader training courses as well (for decades!).

Certainly as a trained, experienced scouter, and commissioner, you realize that the CO does no OWN a charter as you stated. The charter is the proof of ownership held by the CO that shows it has entered into the "shared responsibiliteis" agreement with the BSA council. The charter says the the BSA has agreed to let the CO operate a scouting unit and that the CO has agreed to use the scouting program. Each year in you recharter process the IH or CR signs the agreement of shared responsibilities that is also signed by a council representative (often a Commissioner). This contract is what generates the Charter being given. All the responsibilities in the agreement are not the BSA's. The CO has some as well that they agree to. Among them, they agree to select and recruit their unit leaders.

Aaron What a unit wears should depend on the activity at hand. The BSA uniforms are designed for specific purposes, they are no always appropriate to wear but when worn should be done so correctly. When you wear your t-shirt do you also wear BSA shorts, BSA belt, BSA socks? If not then you are not in any type of Scout uniform no matter what nomenclature you use. The BSA has two troop uniforms. BSA tan uniform shirt with red shoulder tab covers, BSA slacks or shorts, BSA belt, BSA socks (hat and neckerchief are optionsl) And BSA t-shirt or polo, BSA shorts, BSA belt, BSA socks. Anything else is not being IN a Scout uniform. You can find more on this in the BSA Insignia Guide, The BSA Boy Scout Handbook, The BSA uniform inspection sheet, BSA Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. I hope this helps answer your question.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed please, Not the national charter the congressional charter that establishes that the BSA can only deliver the program through other organizations, the 'Charter concept' of scouting. This establishes the boundary between the BSA and the Scouting units by giving the ownership of the program to the BSA but the ownership of the units to the BSA's contracted partners, the Charter Organizations. Each party has specific resposnsibilites which you can learn from BSA program handbooks or by attending and being attentive at New Leader Essentials (or in the past at any of the leader basic training courses.) Now lets get back to the part where you want the BSA to do your job as a commissioner.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not deny that it is being threatened OGE. But it is being done by very councils and as I showed you in the e-mail I shared from national it is not a action they endorse. And while a council might take a small unstable unit and refuse to charter them to make an example of them, no council is actually going to refuse a charter of a unit of any size based on this criterias. We are all aware of the three primary responsibilities of a the professional staff and they will make sure that all three are surpassed before they took an action like refusing a charter. The dog growls good but in this case it will be unwilling to bite the hand that feeds it. Do not misunderstand, I like the rule. But unless performance criteria is changed drastically this will never become anything more than a local experiment and very short lived.

Ed how can you serve as a commissioner and not understand the 'Charter concept' and the 'shared responsibilities' of scouting? You are trained, you have been a trainer, you are now a commissioner. How can you serve units if you do not understand these basics yet? Ed writes "Actually, if the BSA demanded more (and enforced)from the CO's they would probably be more involved in the leader selection process and these type of problems should decrease." And there my friends is the problem in a nut shell! The council CAN greatly influence the understanding of the CO. It's done by having council/district representatives meet face to face with IHs, CRs, and CCs. We call these people COMMISSIONERS. YOU ED are one of the people who is supposed to be out there fixing the problem. YOU as a commissioner are supposed to be out there doing that work, but instead you are complaining that the BSA should be doing it. Do you see now how we got into this problem...and why it still exists. Everyone has to do their own job and stop wanting others to it it for them.

Packsaddle, It's unfortunate that there was no one in your unit knowledgeable enough about scouting to explain the structure of the scouting community and how a healthy council helps to not only provide a better service and program support to the scouts in the unit today but also in the future. Perhaps if the council had the funds it needed, to do the work it wanted to do for the scouts and units, then the parents and the leaders would have a better opinion of the value of FOS. I cannot fathom how folks allow a problem in another community to motivate them to punish their own. They will have the council they earned rather than the won they wanted. Ed, What do you want me to refute, that the BSA national office is not a boat? Ok then The BSA national office is definitely not a boat. I have been the the BSA national office on two occassions and both times I went it was an office building. I am pretty sure it still is. What facts did jkhny offer to refute? None! He concocted a fairy tale and bent his story to fit his uninformed view. How does one refute a fairy tale? And how can anyone give it any credence at all? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA cannot do that due to the restrictions of the congressional charter, however a few local councils are trying to do just that by saying they will refuse to charter any volunteer or unit whose key volunteers (those in direct youth leadership roles) are not trained within 1 year of joining. It is a dog with no teeth. No council is going to refuse to charter a unit, or even an individual, over this matter when they are responsible for showing an increase in adult and youth members, and units, as a performance criteria. The solution is in training the IH, CR, and CC through personal contact. These are the people ultimately responsible for unit leader selection and operation. They are the folks empowered to hire and release volunteers. COs need to regain the ownership of THEIR units, and they need to be dilligent in their efforts to select and recruit quality individuals to learn and lead the scouting program. Until that day comes we need leader to lead programs rather than to complain about the BSA.

Don't be surprised that Zig used the Scout Oath. You do know he is a member of the BSA executive committee right? He recieved the Silver Buffalo award a couple years back.

A good place to start your search is...where did you get it from? I have never heard that before. Even if Baden Powell said It I would have to disagree with it. Boys will become men as a matter of nature. What kind of men will be a matter of nurture, and that is where scouting plays a role.

"You can say that BSA gives responsibility to the CO and unit for recruiting leaders because there are too many for BSA National to manage effectively." Where did I say that Prairie Scouter? I said the The BSA National office DOESN'T SELECT UNIT LEADERS. That is not their responsibility or purpose. Your charter organization is responsible for you being a unit leader NOT the BSA. Why is that so difficult to understand? If a person with poor character is in your unit it is because your unit picked them and signed them-up. The BSA had nothing to do with that choice. The BSA told your CO to choose carefully, the BSA told any trained personell you have to require 3 personal references and to check them out. The BSA told your unit what characteristics to look for and what not to. The BSA performed a criminal background check for you to see if any known criminal convictions existed. BUT your UNIT made the choice not the BSA. It has nothing to do with too many leaders, it's about "shared responsibilities" and who is responsible for what. Any unit who has leaders wiith poor character has them because that unit, and that unit ONLY, opened their doors and invited them in. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

How much scouting costs depends entirely on the individual unit's budget, their program choices, and their ability to meet those program choice and budget needs through fundraising. As a Cub Master the Pack I served had families responsible for the uniform, oftem bought through our exchange for a pittance, but the pack supplied all patches, neckerchiefs, and handbooks. Cubs paid $1 a week den dues, everything else we did was paid for by the pack, except for day camp and families paid a portion with the CO paying the balance. In the troop the scouts were responsible for their uniform, personal gear accept for patches and neckerchiefs that were supplied by the troop), and for their food on campouts. The troop paid for all camping fees and awards. Families paid for summer camp. Costs of uniforms and equipment could be offset through popcorn sales. I know some packs where scouting costs as much as Ed's troop pays. Like just about anything else in life, Scouting is expensive if you choose to make it expensive. (Cub uniform worn once a week X 52 weeks in a year, X 2 years = 104) and thats conservatively from my experience. As far as how many uniforms do I have. USUALLY 2 Short Sleeve shirts (1 set up for troop bought in 1981, 1 for District/Council bought in 2000) 1 Long Sleeve shirt for ceremonies (bought in 1996) 1 pair of slacks (bought in 2002) 1 pair of shorts (bought in 1998 or so) 6 pairs of socks (bought around 2000) 2 belts (1 leather (2001), 1 web green (1977)) HOWEVER, due to Jamboree and now Sea Scouts 2 Short Sleeve 1 Long Sleeve 2 Slacks (1 new) 2 Shorts (1 new) 12 pairs of socks (6 new) 4 belts (1 leather, 3 web (green, khaki (2005), white (2005)) 1 Dress White Sea Scout Uniform (2005) 1 Work Tan Sea Scout uniform (2005) 1 Multipurpose cap (2covers white and tan) (2005) I would say that since the uniform change in 1981 that I have spent maybe $500 on uniform pieces over 24 years. So since I am in uniform at least once a week and for several years 2 or 3 times (500/24)/60= less than .35 every time I put on a BSA uniform. I think it's worth a lot more than that. But it doesn't matter because I chose to do this, no one made me. if I ever thought it was costing more than it was worth I would simply make a different choice. I cannot understand the choice to volunteer and then complain, no one is blocking the exit.

Leaders can certainly be recommended from among your volunteers. But only the Committee Chair along with either the IH or CR can approve them, they can also look beyond your recommendtion (not a bad idea sometimes) and choose someone who they believe would perform the role better. The troop does not belong to the leaders of the troop. It belongs to the Charter Organization. You might not operate that way, You might not even like that, but as a trainer certainly you know that it is a fact that the Scouting program is designed and taught to function that way.