Bob White

Have you read the Advacnement Committee Policies and Procedures manual for the BSA's recommendation on how to organize the MB counselors in your council or district?

There are indeed Sails and anchors in scouting.

My hope was not that you would defend yourself but that you would re-evaluate the situation and see that the problem here is not dad.

No one has questioned "should we be". The point I was making is that you cannot always be all points at once. That they are not always compatable. Sometimes you must choose which serves the greatest good in the situation you are in. Ethical decision making.

I got what I expected, I think that is a fair thing to a say. I think its good that they got an editor for the newsletter. Can I ask some questions. You say in your 6th paragraph or so that I'm not as negative on BSA as you like to think And yet up to that point and beyond it you make no positive statements about the BSA. Another statement I found interesting was that "traditions change", I'm could be mistaken but I am pretty sure that what makes them tradition is that they don't change. Basically you sound frustrated, and misinformed by others. For instance 1. You don't believe that the BSA ever discusses or reconsiders the membership policies related to atheism anmd homosexuals. What evidence or information have you obtained to lead you to that conclusion 2. You believe that if you try to discuss this with national you will thrown out of scouting. Can you point to a single incident where this has happened to lead you to believe it will or could happen to you. 3. You don't know specifically who to address your concerns to do you? Who have you asked and who did they tell you to send your concerns to. 4. When you said you had no intention of "giving up my efforts to correct the situation" it implied two things. First, that you had already done something about the "situation" and second that there was a "situation". The first by your own narrative is not true, while you are 'formulating' a letter you have not as yet actually done anything other than form an opinion, which in and of itself does not solve anything. AS far as the "situation" that is really an opinion, and one that is shared by only a small portion of members. So truth in fact you have gathered bad information, and thought about writing someone but you do not know who, and you think you could get removed for it (more bad info) so as of yet you haven't done anything at all. But you continue to post inaccuracies because you do not want to give your efforts. There has been no effort Prairie. If you will answer my questions I will give you the information you have wanted. In return I ask that before you post what you hear others with little information grumble about, or what you think BSA is or isn't or does or doesn't do you will first ASK for information. Is it a deal?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Madkins, If I may interject. While folks at national possibly look in from time to time, remember you said "possibly", complaining with no solution in hopes they might hear is hardly a well convceived "plan" for achieving change. What would happen in your specific professional environment to an employee who wandered the break room spewing complaints in hopes that the management might "possibly" wander in and be educated? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being "Welcome to the Board of Directors" and 1 being "Welcome to your State Office of Unemployment" where would you place this employee's future potential? While I appreciate your input on the matter I believe a response from Prairie Scouter is in order. He mentioned that he was making "efforts to correct the situations in the BSA", and until now I was unaware that he was doing so. I am anxious to find out what those specific efforts are. Best wishes BW

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Madkins, dear friend and associate, Where ever did I suggest you wanted to do away with it. You asked if anyone wore it and I told you who did. Yes, some volunteers wear it. As an example our council president wears it on occassions when he is meeting with business people or at formal dinners when representing the council. A pleasure BW

Thank you Eamonn I can agree to a large degree with that since the Scout promise is a oath to yourself and not to others.

So to shorten this up and to remove the emotional narrative let me see if I have the time line correct. When he was 16 (no year given) a person who would later work at a BSA camp sexually abused a child but since he was a minor at the time the court records were sealed. In or around 1988 this person began working at a scout camp in 1991 the BSA recieved a letter and a phone call saying that this person had molested a child in the past but that it was a part of a sealed record. At least 7 people were at the BSA were made aware of the letter 1996- at this point in time no one has made any report of any Youth Protection violations relating to this person that you know of. 1997- This individual was seen abusing a child he was arrested and convicted. 2002- 5 years later the family files suit against the BSA 2005- The files which were sealed when the individual was 16 years old, sometime prior to 1988 were for the first time made public. They showed that he had indeed been convicted of a crime at that time. Before we continue, is this an accurate timeline of events based on the information you shared in your post. If not please tell me what FACTS were missed.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Now John, no one said anything of the kind and you know it. Deeeeep breath time John. rReality check. There are no uniform police, there never were. There are uniform controls establish by the BSA to create a 'UNIFORM' consistant, controlled, predetermined clothing and accessories that represents the program as a whole and subgroups. Now John, A question was asked of what is the RULE, so we went to the rule book and replied "the rule book says this". Now how is that the uniform police? Had you been one of the people to look in the book would you suddenly and automatically join the fictional uniform police force? Of course not John, its just a book of answers. Now according to the rules, and as scouters it is unscoutlike to be disobedient, accessories such as hats, shirts, and neckerchiefs, and activity patches, must have one of three elements; the intials BSA, the words 'Boy Scouts of America", or the Fleur d'lis symbol. It also is to be approved by the SE since it incorporates trademarked words and emplems. I have five shirts from differnt WB courses and about 15 at the moment from fifferent summer camps and day camps and every one of them has one or more of those three elements in their design, and I would bet that yours probably do to. If not, then yes, the shirts are not technically approved for 'Uniform' wear. Now that doesn't mean they can't be worn. It means that when you wear them you are not 'in uniform' assording to the uniform rules of the BSA. I hope this helps you to understand the situation more clearly and shows that there is nothing here to be upset about. BW

Hi jhnky, welcome back neighbor, Unfortunately you violated your own terms of the discussion. You asked that I respond to facts with facts and I did so on the only two items of your shopping list that you had any facts on. I asked you for to return with facts that specifically supported your criticisms and yet you return to us empty handed. As you have been requested, pick ONE item of your list. Present facts not opinions to rationalize and establish this is as a valid point and not just more ranting, and I think we can expalin what you do not understand. "Evil thrives when good people are silent." I agree. Why more scouters do not defend the program against some of the absolute folly that is posted by "scouters" on this board who malign scouting is beyond me. As you say scouting is a great program for kids. But only if it has good adult leaders delivering it. Constantly wailing about the same few headlines over and over is hardly what anyone would call good leadership. Nor does it do anything to resolve any of your concerns. We have an ESDA siren about a block from us. Every Tusday at 10 AM it wails the same loud noise for a few minutes and then stops. Everyone knows that thats all it does. There is no actual emergency, the siren is just set to make noise once a week. If there were a real emergency the siren has no effect on protecting anyone, for instance its loud whine doesn't actually turn away the tornado. These days we don't even use it to know if there is a tornado, we have far better means of communications than a wailing siren. Someday the siren will go away, because for all its noise it doesn't actually do anything. As always, so nice of you to drop in, I look forward to you sharing the requested data. BW

Hi kittle, this is nothing that can be done about this last event, but you can better prepare for the next one. First, everyone needs to go get trained in their positions and in Youth Protection. THERE IS NO DEN CAMPING IN CUB SCOUTS, except for Webelos. There is only Family camping as a Pack, and every Cub must have a parent or LEGAL guardisn in attendance. If your Den leader had a bunch of cubs at his or her home OVERNIGHT without their parent or guardian present then you need to inform the council's Scout Executive before word gets to him or her from a concerned parent. This could be a very serious problem. Next, once everyone knows their job and the rules, next time you plan a family campout you need to make sure that everyone is on board and that all the concerns of the families are met, evidently they had some hesitations going camping with the current plan. But trained leaders is your first step. After they have been informed of the YP regulations if any leader does not follow them again you need to repot them to the SE. do not take youth protection procedures lightly.

"If BSA felt as passionately about the program and it's methods as some of the posters here, leaders (and COs)would not have an option...they would get trained and follow the program, or be removed." And that is exactly what they are doing! Some Councils are already giving leaders 1 year fom the time they register to get trained or they are not letting their membership renew. While national has said that that this is not their prefered method (they would rather have the leaders learn and follow the program because that is the committment they made), they are not stopping the councils from doing it. My guess is that if some councils can make this work it will becone a national practice. I hope it does. Many CO's have dropped the ball when it comes to selecting good leaders. You cannot lead a program that you do not know and understand. There is no "perfect scout unit" the program is not attempting to achieve that. But there is is a a perfectly good "Scouting Program" and unit leaders have each agreed to follow it.... and too many have gone back on their word. When leaders do not follow the program then boys and girls quit scouting because the promise made them in their handbooks was not kept. Good scouters should get mad. Adults who are unwilling to learn or follow the program hurt all of our units for years to come. There is no acceptable excuse for an adult to be in this program for a year and not be trained. There is no acceptable excuse for leader who has been trained to not know where to go to find information on how to do any of their responsibilities. Adults who do not like the BSA should not be in the BSA. If you are unhappy you owe it to yourself to go do something you like SOMEWHERE ELSE. Good scouters should get mad, bad scouters lose the scouts they serve quickly. Then they become complainers in an effort for you to lose the scouts you serve. The idea that mailigning this program without offering one bit of informed information on how to implement change or evidence as to if that change would be an improvement is inane. And good scouters shouldn't turn a blind eye to it because the ONLY people who will be hurt are the scouts we serve, because the scouts they served have already quit. Being trustworthy, loyal and brave enough to defend the scouts and the program is NOT un-scoutlike. Being helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, to thos who want to serve the community through scouting, is not un-scoutlike. If you are going to punish the dog for barking at the intruder then be ready to have your house robbed.

Greetings and welcome neighbor. "The Scout is the one who should be requesting SM conferences, Actually there is NOTHING in the BSA Handbook or Scoutmaster handbook that says that. But the BSA teaches that the adults are there to serve the boys, especially the scoutmaster, and not the other way around. A scoutmaster that knew a scout needed a scoutmaster conference should be sitting down and having one not "delaying it for a couple of weeks". Dad is correct and knowing that, as a trained leader, he has some concerns. It does open up the question 'if the SM was to busy to this job while he was doing the CC's job', what other SM responsibilities is he "delaying"? For the trained dad this might have just been the straw that broke the camel's back. If you were commissioning a unit would you tella Scoutmaster that "if he were having trouble with a parent" that he should punish the child? SST3rd's problem seems to be that he delayed it because he is busy. But he seems to be busy doing things other than what the SM is there to do. You cannot be too busy to serve a scout when that is what your job is. Thanks for visiting Ed, come again soon, BW

Present you idea to the district or council committee and see what they say.

Boy Scouts want adventure has been my experience. Let them pick a destination or activity and if they make the goal, pack up and go.

Greeting and Welcome Neighbor! "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those >who are doing it" Exactly so, Bob, and that why I'm not going to give up my efforts to correct situations in BSA that don't seem right," I am so happy to hear of your "efforts" besides merely posting your disagreements on a website, please share with us what committees you are on either nationally or regionally that are currently working to correct the "situations" you refer to and which situations you have formulated plans to remedy. Perhaps that is not what you are doing? Perhaps you have developed a plan individually and are making or sending the presentation to a committee or individual currently addressing that "situation". Please share your plan with us and who you have determined to send the plan to? Many thanks, Ilook forward to an informed, and informative, response BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Greetings and Welcome neighbor! "HOWEVER, please refute facts with facts, not rhetoric or name calling. Do not say how it could be "worse" or how others are. Please explain why BSA has failed to show the "character" and "values" it claims to represent. Please provide facts to dispute. This is merely your opinion and a generalization at that, which has no facts mentioned within it at all. Please explain why membership fraud has been an issue for 30+ years(or more). An issue with whom? How many instances are you specifically aware of, please provide facts. List the council and year that you have substantiated knowledge of so that we have the "facts". If my math is correct with an average of 300+ councils per year for 30 plus years that would be over 9000+ sets of annual figures in fact. Once we have the factual number you will supply of all the instance you speak of we will divide your number by 9000 and determine approximately what percentage of reports were actually a part of the "devistating" problem. "Please explain why child abuse is still a recurring issue Unfortunately it is because there are criminals in our world that abuse children. " - more than in other organizations" Because they target the BSA since we deal with large numbers of children on a regular basis where they assume a position of trust and authority as they cowardly camoflage themselves in ascout uniform. "- despite "youth protection" Because too many volunteers do not get trained or do not pay attention in trainin gand in the unit which is the COs responsibility. The BSA has warned everyone of the problem and has the most comprhensive training on the subject in the country. FACT: All of these points by the way are explained by a psychologist and a Dallas Police detective in the BSA Youth Protection Training. Please share if you have evidence that the BSA trained them to be abusers, selected them because they were abusers, or that units kept them knowing they were abusers, and supply facts if you have any evidence to support either. Ona scale of 1 to 10 please rate (with 10 being the most likely and 1 the least) What is the propability that the abuser kept his crimes hidden from everyone other than the people he abused? (about Smith again?) Smith was not charged with child abuse. He was not even accused of chid abuse. He never even was accused of touching a scout inappropriately or participating in his crime during his work time or on scout property. Smith retired before he was charged, he plead guilty and is being punished for recieving and re-transmitting child pornography on the internet. and please explain why abuse is STILL covered up (there are more incidents than Idaho - another surfaced in closed venues today). Facts please. "Please stop making excuses for the continuing declines in Scouting membership A request not a question and void of factual information "and ask why do top executives deserve to be so generously rewarded for FAILURE to accomplish their number one goal - to GROW Scouting." Opinion not fact, not supported by facts. Just because they make a good living does not mean they do not deserve it or earn it. You have no idea the quality of each professional, you just know you don't like them so you don't like the fact that they make more than you do. So do lot's of people. You need to get over that. And while at it, please explain why so many actions by paid leadership are neither "ethical" or "moral" There are far more crimes committed by volunteers than professionals. The number of BSA employess are a drop of water compared to the bust of water that are volunteers. When you deal with this many people there will always be bad ones. What do they call the person who finished at the bottom of his medical class? Doctor! "Having staked out such high moral ground - representing itself as "the best" allowing only "the best" to serve as leaders in Scouting, BSA is duty bound to be just that, nothing less. ANd BSA has been failing to come even close to its stated ideals. There is mere incompetence at work and even corruption. Neither should be allowed in BSA - however "infrequently" it occurs. Nothing but personal opinion and rants. If your want to discuss facts you need to present some facts first. "Some of th ebest people I have known are volunteers in Scouting. BSA - as currently run - does not deserve them. Opinion, and without knowing the same people you know this can not be accepted as fact. In that entire post the only facts you offered were that child abuse still takes place and membership is down. However you have no evidence that membership will not increase sometime in the future as it has done in the past. Membership in most any group or organization goes through a series of increases and decreases especially when viewed over a prolonged period of time such as the 95 year history of the BSA. what facts can you offer that this cycle will not rebound? By the way are you familiar with where the three largest membership losses have occured? Everything else you have put forward is your opinion and lacks any of the factual information you had promised. Thank you for visiting, do please come again.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Jerry, we can't create sails. We need the COS to recommit themselves to selecting good people and getting them to make a personal committment to learning and following the scoutng program. Isn't it ironic that leaders ask that same thing of scouts each week yet many adult leaders never take that committment to heart themselves. What we can do depends on our role in scoutinbg. The first thing is learn your job and do it as best you can, if you need help ask. The Scouting community has ample resources for most situations. But think of the posters we have seen and the units we know of in our own councils who have made the choice, not only to not ask, but to isolate themselves and rfeuse any assistance offered them by the district or council. Let me add a couple things related to other posts in this thread. Council and District people are NOT paid to fix leaky ships. Service that supports units and scouters in need are provided by volunteer members of the district and council committees. SST3RD, you may not like this and I do not mean to be unkind or discourteous, but you have mistakenly put the blame on the wrong person. Your scoutmaster trained dad understands what the problem is... "I've delayed this Scout's SM Conference for a couple of weeks." That is not the decision that is in the best interest of the scout. Instead of working long and hard to find committee members you should be doing Scoutmaster Conferences. Recruiting committee members is the committee chair's job not the scoutmaster's. If you are too busy to help a scout advance then you are TOO busy doing the wrong things. I suggest a phone call to dad with an apology for being distracted from your primary functions. Then an apology to the scout for having put him off, then set a time in the next few days to meet with him. Have a cheerful, thoughtful conference and get him to a board of review as quickly as possible. Scouts do not need to wait for a court of honor to advance.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Courteous- "A Scout is polite to everyone reguardless of age and position. He knows that good manners make it easier for people to get along together." I agree and comply wholey with that. I do not see how defending the people and values that are dear to you from attack as being in conflict with the responsibilities of a good scout or citizen. By attacking scouting the other person has already shown, just as the intruder in your home has show, that courtesy is not a concern of thiers. They are there to do harm , and loyalty and duty do not always allow for courtesy but do allow for use of other values such as loyalty, barvery, and trustworthiness.

sirjimmyg, Sit down and think about the kinds of things that would interest you and your friends, and make a list. Then sit down with the PLC and have each do the same thing, then have each tell about their favorite activity they came up with. Sit back, listen, observe, take notes. What got the guys excited, what had most never done before, what would appeal to the most boys, what would fit the monthly themes nicely? Then offer a summary of you discovered, That should get you off to a good start.

Madkins, the dress uniform is worn primarily by professional scouters. Our DEs keep theirs in their office on hangars or they wear them while the uniform rests on the hangars. How often do we see the dress uniform, some us see them a lot. Its a big program, you cannot make good assumptions based only on the little bit you alone see. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Do you just let it sink? Yes, you do Jerry. Because it's not your boat. It belongs to the CO and if the IH and the CR do not care if the boat is sinking than you should go find someone who cares about their boat and join them. You are not responsible for other peoples property if they are careless with it by THEIR own choice. We lose too many scouts and too many good adults to bad units. Let's leave the bad units to their bad COs and their bad leaders and go make good new units, or make existing good units better. Do not think that good parents rush in to save bad units. Thats not how people are wired. You can get lots of folks to come watch a train wreck, but nobody wants to be on the train! As a commissioner working on life saving teams we had many successes. Our strategy was this. We observed a couple unit meetings and a couple of committee meetings. We went to the DR and CC and said, "here are the people who are weakening the unit". (Sometimes it was the people we were meeting with). Then we would say "We can train you in the scouting methods that will solve your problem, if you and the others will commit to the training and the changes (or agree to replace them), then we will stay and offer our resources to help you until the unit is healthy again". "If you or they will not accept this offer, we will leave and make a contact list of all the scouts in the unit so that when your unit folds we can get them into a healthy unit. This is your unit, the choice is yours." If they agreed we were always able to help them turn it around, if they refused we made sure every scout had the opportunity to get into a better program. So we rarely failed. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

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