Bob White

Do not project what happens in your council as being what happens in all 320. It Ain't. Many councils still recieve united way support, it may not be as much as in the past but there are more agencies geting money than in the past so nearly everyone gets less, I really do not believe that any council goes from 80% to 25% participation in popcorn. If the council you claim to be in did then it is a rarity. If your unit was successful at it then it makes no sense that you would get rid of it, but if you did that is your units choice. All I am advocating is don't kill the goose just because you personally don't get enough eggs. Lots and lots of units and councils do great with popcorn, why should we give it up based on the compalints of a few units who don't do it, or don't do it well. If a unit thinks it has something better I say go for it. I hope that they share half with the council since they benefit from all the things the other units help pay for when they do popcorn.

Well So far I have shown mathematically that neither of the two suggestions so far raise as much money as popcorn does. So far no one's post has contradicted my statement that only people unsuccessful at popcorn have suggested that the BSA stop using it. (By the way this has not been a BSA project it has in the past been allowed by the BSA for councils to do but it was never supported on a nationaql level nor does any popcorn money go to national. I have served as popcorn chair in my son's pack and troop several times and so I have sat at the meetings with other popcorn chairs, and discuss all kinds of unit issues as a commissioner so yes my information is first hand. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Fred You are still only getting 50% profit where popcorn gets over 60%. The difference is you keep all the proceeds rather than splitting it with the council. If you did that you would only get 25% rther than the 30-33% you get from Popcorn. Sure it be be best for your unit but popcorn helps the ntire scoutng community, reduces the dependence on the UW funds, and improves resources and services for all the scouts in the coucil and their families. The big difference I see is that it has worked for you and you are not clling for the BSA to find something different. Where as the folks who have not made use of popcorn sales want it to go away from everyone.

Lynda. Your candy bars raise far less money than popcorn. Your product cost is twice that of popcorn. With the candy bars the school made 33% profit with popcorn your council made 66% profit which was split between the council and the unit. 0n $600 in popcorn sales scouting raised $400. With the candy bars you would have needed to sell $800 or 33% more product to raise the same amount of money. Buy selling $1000 in candy and making $500 in profit you needed 66% more product sales to gain a 25% increase in profit compared to what your son's popcorn sale yielded. Not a very efficient sales profile. Popcorn is in fact the more profitable item. Vicki, Don't you think that people who don't sell popcorn telling all of us that the BSA councils should stop doing because they don't like it, is far mor divisive and far less informative than anything I said?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually unless you are violation of the policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting you have two positions at this time. Tiger Den Leader (pack) Assistant Scoutmaster (troop) The other two are not BSA positions but job responsibilities that can be assigned to a position such as the Assistant Scoutmaster, or a committee member. As a unit leader, if your District follows the National rules, you are not eligible to be a unit commissioner. You might just tell them that.

Well who can argue with logic like that? Absolutely, go to the unit committee and tell them dispite all the money they made and all the things it purchased for the scouts, and all the prizes that the boys got, the unit should stop doing it because YOU don't like it. I'll bet that goes over real big. Now that you've explained it so well who could disagree?

Sue It is far more than unnecessary, it is a violation of the BSA Advancment Policies and the unit has no authority to be doing it. If any scout should be refused by the improper review you are required to give him a written explanation and inform him of the appeals process that he can pursue through the council and national advancement committees. That's a lot of work just to do something wrong isn't it? You will find Sue that many unit "traditions" are just things that have been done wrong for so long that they now believe it to be right. Who said a scout had to get used to BoRs? One per rank, and one per palm is all that most need to do. Besides what is there to get used to? These are supposed to be positive conversations, not anything that should require practice. Sorry Sue, but what the unit is doing is just wrong, and there is nothing in the BSA program that supports it. The question is, are you willing to do anything to set things right?

Just nearly 30 years as a unit leader, District Commissioner, Roundtable Commission, District and Council commitee member, BSA Trainer, working with hundreds of units and several hundred scouters listening to what they like and don't like, and what works and doesn't work, and helping them solve problems, other than that we have the posters themselves. Let's ask how many do the popcorn sales and how much they have raised. So starting with the posters in this thread who do not like popcorn or its price lets ask if they do it and how well they have done. And of course everyone remembers they are on their Scout's Honor. By the way is it any surprise that for the most part it's the same regular list of posters complaining and the same people supporting.

Review the card not the requirements. You werenot asked to restest the scout. Is the scout from your troop? Is his name spelled right, is this the MB he took, are the dates correct? Did you get everyones card back? Is his personal info correct? Did the counselor sign it? If the scout wants to come to you and say there has been a mistake good for him, if you want to violate the rules to see if you can find a mistake...bad, bad, bad. The merit badge program is between the scout and the counselor, and if you were indeed aware of that... then you should not be reviewing the requirements as you say you have been. Eamonn: I agree feedback is a gift. And I think that a scoumaster should be aware of the quality of the work of the counselor, but there are many ways to do that without violating the advancement policies and reviewing the scout when you are specifically instructed not to do that. Improperly appropriating "the gift" robs it of its value. Summer camp is especially easy. Go watch the classes. You have all week you have more than one adult...go visit. Or, quiz the counselor outside of class. Nothing in the rules say you cannot review the requirements with the counselor, just NOT with the scout. If the parent is going as buddy explain to them wat to observe for and to let you know of any concerns they might have. Talk to the scouts, explain to them how to identify good counselors and that they will get far more from a counselor who follows the requirements then someone who does not. Teach them about self respect BEFORE they start on merit badges and on how if they know that a requirement was not completed they should, for the benefit of their own character, speak up about it. There are lots of ways to be a good leader without ever having to break the rules(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why do find it necessary to go on so. All I said was that a lot of units make a lot of money with Popcorn sales and that the only leaders who complain come from the few units who do not do it, or do not do it well. Nothing you poster contradicted that statement. If your unit's problem is geography then are you expecting that geography to change if you sell something different? To want to get rid of the product for everyone because you are one of the few units who cannot or choose not to make it work seems awfully self-centered doesn't it? If you want to sell something different go ahead, nothing has ever stopped you from doing so. But why must you criticize a program that works for most simply because you have not gotten it to work for you?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What about the fact that the BSA advancement policies, in the Advancemnt Committee Policies and Procedures manual,state that Merit Badges are not subject to review, and that the decision of the MB counselor is final? Where in any part of the BSA program, resources, or training is any unit leader assigned the responsibility to review merit badges? Presuming you did not know this before, what is the likelyhood that you will follow the program from this point on and not review the merit badge requirements with the scout?

As sout, according to the Merit badge counselor orienteering, is required to do no more and no less than stated in the official requirements. Requirements 3 and 7 do not require a campout or hike. Requirement 9 does not have to be done on a troop or patrol outing. If you feel the MB counselor did not fulfill their responsibilities you should submit your concerns and evidence to the Council Advancement Committee. ( I must tell you though that you have a very weak case). If the counselor did not do the job correctly he or she will be told how to come in line with the requirements in the future or be removed. However, if the scouts have received their merit badges they will not be revoked. BW

"if you don't like it you can leave? If you don't like what you can leave? The rules, the wall color, the lighting, what exactly then were you refering to? I did not say anything about you breaking any rules did I?

It's funny that LOTS of scout units large and small make LOTS of money selling popcorn. Those that don't sell it, or don't do well at it, are always the ones who want to get rid of it.

I think we will have to leave it to the individual readers to determine for themselves who gave straight answers and who did not. In the State I live an employer can discharge any non contract employee without any reason. Is that unscoutlike? Scoutlike has nothing to do with it, it's an employer's right, it is not a matter of scoutlike or not. A private organization can discharge a volunteer for any reason they choose. It has nothing to do with scoutlike or not, it is simply a legally allowed. Just or unjust, scoutlike may be a concern of the person discharged, but to me it is just the right of the organization to do. Ed, you said to the parent "you chose to join, if you do not like the rules leave". What makes that different than the council or BSA saying the same thing to a volunteer leader that you would say to a parent and scout? Are you saying that YOU voluntarily joined an organization without knowing what the rules and policies of membership were. Isn't that a personal responsibility? Isn't following those rules a personal responsibility? In your own words you suggested be used on that mother and scout "you joined voluntarily and if you don't like the rules leave?" Explain why that should not apply to a Scouter? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ed help me out then. What is the difference between a family voluntarily joinung a unit and having to follow the rules or leav as you said, OR A person voluntarily joining the BSA ad having to follow the rules or leave. You said the first one and you said you do not agree with the second, so please explain how they differ. Hunt Remove you subjective word of 'scoutlike' and I can answer differently. I do not see how scoutlike enters in to this. The question is can the BSA do it, yes, Should a private organization be able to do it, yes. Whether you bekieve it scoutlike will depend on your position when it happens. If it happens to you I do not think you would see it as scoutlike, Where as if it happened to you I would see it as the BSA's decision not mine and they have the right to their decision.

You raise a good point NJ one however that could have been made posing a question rather than a slur, but that was your choice. I had not considered going back that far so I will withdraw that statement and say instead.... Unjust has not been proven. The rules were known, the membership voluntary, and we agree that the BSA has the right to the action. Leaving only the vanquished responsible for choosing his or her own actions.

Now I am confused! I asked evmori "Do you agree with the statement that "you knew the rules coming in and if you do not like them you can leave?" evmori answered "no I don't agree with the statement." But at 12:33 this very day evmori wrote in response to a post about a parent who didn't like the decision of a scout leader " You chose to put your kid in my unit. If you don't like it you can leave! So I am confused. How is it that it is okay for YOU to say that to a parent and her scout if they don't like your rules, but the BSA cannot say it to you if you don't like BSA's rules? Now do you see why I do not understand where you actually stand? referencehttp://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=10919#10919 (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Molscouter i can "imagine" any number of things being done by anyone. But surely you are not suggesting that it is Okay to criticize the BSA based on what someone has "imagined"? kahuna, No I am not and no it isn't. evmori, I am asking to have a better understanding of where you actually stand on this. Do you agree with the statement that "you knew the rules coming in and if you do not like them you can leave." and no it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you have broken any rules.

That was Will Rogers who said that. A liitle Scouting trivia. Where had Rogers been prior to the airplane crash that took his life? He was visiting Waite Phillips at what is now Philmont.

Evmori I am not asking "for the sake of argument" I am asking to have a better understanding of where you actually stand on this. Do you agree with the statement that "you knew the rules coming in and if you do not like them you can leave." Hunt If it is legal then it cannot be "unjust". You might find it disappointing, but the guy who gets a ticket for speeding is disappointed that does not make the ticket unjust.

Check out roundtables. A good Cub Roundtable will have examples each month of how to teach cubs in a fun and active way. It's about the skill of the teacher not the topic of the subject.

It's ME In what year were the Tenderfoot requirements you site taken from the Webelos program and put into the Boy Scout Program?

Oak Tree I agree with you completely and I have long posted that the vast majority of scouters are cheerful, loyal, dedicated volunteers. Unfortunately that is not representative of a good number of participants on this forum. If you look at the posts regarding things such as advancement, uniforms, the Handbooks, training, administation. You will find that an astiounding number of "scouters" represented here are barely even knowledgable dispite YEARS of membership, they dislike and complain about almost every aspect of scouting including about the scouts, their parents, the COs, and the topics I mentioned previously. I and a few others have long championed that this forum would be far more effective and beneficial if it focused on how to deliver quality scouting rather than being about how to next attack anything they can about the BSA, but unfortunately I am a part of a vocal minority. The forum is what it is, and unless for some reason those who spend their time attacking the BSA and those who support it, have an epiphany and realize that what is wrong with scouting isn't going to be found among the ones who aren't complaining, then I'm afraid your plea will fall on deaf ears as has the pleas of those of us before you. As far as how you perceive my posts I invite you to find where I have been critical of anyone wanting to learn the program, wanting to improve their skills, wanting to serve the scouts, or anyone who has supported the program. My criticism has always been for those who refuse to learn, chase youth away, or are critical of the BSA based on gossip and innuendo. I am not the only one willing to challenge the damage they do. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

evmori, So do you agree that like it or not the BSA has the right to revoke memberships based on their own criteria whatever they choose that to be. Do you agree with the statement that 'you knew the rules coming in and if you do not like them you can leave?'