Bob White

How the lawyers or investigators FIND the commissioner is not germane to the thread. The question is about liability insurance and negligence so lets stick with that. Do the readers see how the knowledge and training of a volunteer can affect the safety of the scouts? How knowing and following the program can minimize injury and therefore minimize liability exposure? How untrained or irresponsible leadership can lead to negligent acts that would not be defendable and could cost the program millions of dollars each year? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Registration money goes to National not to council, Who in their right mind PAYS from roundtable space??? Why make families have to sell more product in order to make the same profit? That just doesn't make sense. You would lose a large percentage of scouts and units in a pay as you go plan for all of scoutings services, you would take in less money and the council would not be able to afford to provide as mant services or resources. Your council does use pay as you go for some events such as camporees and popsters on this board have complained about that very thing, so its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Yes popcorn cost less in the past but then so did everything else. Inflation and cost of living have risen faster than the cost of popcorn. People who did not sell popcor, or did not do it well have been complaining for years. We have a town nearby with a population of 2,000. They have a pack and a troop. They refused for years to sell popcorn and sold christmas wreaths instead. They made nearly $1,000 in profit each year for their pack of 30 cubs. Two years ago they had a change in leadership and tried popcorn for the first time. They did $8,000 in profit in a town of 2000 people. Families now only pay for the uniform and for half of day camp, the popcorn pays for the rest of scouting for each scout. Guess what??? They quit complaining about popcorn. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

It would be nice if you actually read my posts instead of simply dismissing them because they are mine. Read kahits original post. "I'm wondering what ideas or advice you all might have about how to go about doing this, and if it's advantageous? I answered the question that was asked. It is possible to do but it will be difficult without two years of very creative programming if the boys are to keep from doing the same things two years in a row. It is sound advice for the situation. In fact you said almost the same thing. And you could have done it without even mentioning me. What you think of me will not help kahits in the least. Please try to stay on topic.

Fred if you had read my post you will see where I explained why there is a danger for losing boys. They will not want the same program two years in a row. It will be difficult to work with two levels of scouts and give each level their own age appropriate program. A wolf program will bore the Bear, a Bear program will leave you nothing new to share next year when the wolves become Bears. Boring meetoings is the #1 reason boys quit. As I explained for this to work Kahits will need to be very creative for two years. But now kahits is looking to leave in February for Boy Scouts. So I hope the next leader is ready for the challenge. It is unfortunate that kahits will not be staying with the den through Webelos. AS far as the size of the pack, small units rarley survive, that's just a fact. They lack the depth of resources to sustain a program. Its a problem that needs to be recognized and dealt with if the pack is going to not just survive but thrive. PS Fred "I currently have 3 active Tiger Cubs and it has nothing to do with the program or the way things are run." No, but it does have to do with how you recruit. Unless you only have 12 eligible tiger candidates in town recruiting three Tiger Cubs is not a good sign. I have no need to rethink my philosophy, I have a bit of experience at this I know what warning signs look like. Thank you for your concern.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Kahits, Sm training and ASM training are identical. As an ASM you need the same skills and knowledge as a SM. If you took New Leader Essentials in Cubbing you do not have to take it again. You will need SM/ASM Leader Specific Training and the Introduction to Outdoor Skills course. I would also recommend Youth Protection Training. But first take everything you knew about scouting in Cub Scouts and leave it behind. Boy Scouting is very different. There is far more asking than telling in good scout leadership, and you need to guide boys in making their own decision not in following your decisions. It is a great thing to be a good Scout leader I hope you have as much fun and satisfaction in it as some of us do.

"Yes, the founders had every expectation that God and religion would figure into the governmental process... at the state level. I am not sure that there is any historial evidence to support that. When adams was asked why the word GOD doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution his response was. "Quite honestly sir the subject never came up". I think what the founders most of whom were theists but not notably christian, had on there minds is EXACTLY what the 14th amendmant state s and nothing more. They did not want to see the government have a creat a religion to use to govern the people as England had. Nor did they want the government to suprress any religions as the British had. As far as the pledge, it will only be meaningful to those who believe in what it speaks of. If you do not have the person beliefs embodied by the pledge then repeating it over and over again will not develop those characteristics in you. Like in Scouting wher the Oath represents who you are only if you choose to be that person. I would not try to force someone who didn't believe in the values of scoutng to say the Oath, nor do I think those who do not want to say it should be telling those who do what they should say.

It can be done but you will have two big challenges. You do not want to bore the Bear by repeating his activities he already doid last year as a wolf, you don't want to give the current wolves a year of bear program and then nothing new to experience next year. You are going to need to be unique and creative in your den activities both this year and next or you will lose A LOT of scouts. The bigger question is how did the pack get into this situation. There are probably bigger problems here that need to be addressed. BW

My point again being that the many units who are successful selling popcorn are not the ones complaining that the BSA should drop it. Only the few units who do not use it or are not good at it complain. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

How hard would it be to prove? The BSA asks the CM where he learned a ceremony like that and he says "my unit commissioner" so then they ask the unit commissioner, I would expect he would tell the truth, would't you Ed? I pretty much agree with you as to what would happen. The commissioner would likely have his BSA membership removed, his actions and attitute being a danger and detriment to the scouts and the program. There is also the possibility that the BSA could file suit against the comissioner to try and regain the finances lost through his negligence. But I am not too sure the BSA would want to draw any more attention to the act. But it is a possibility. So lets ask the next logical question. WHAT IF the scout wasn't dropped during the up-side-down improper ceremony. Is the commissioner less negligent in his role as a commissioner? Granted he was lucky, but is he any less a danger to scouts and scouting based on his behavior? And this is something that anyone can answer. It speaks to the importance not only of going to training but of learning and understanding your role in scouting.

FOS?

The problems I have seen with Merit Badge Days, MB Universities, etc. aare the same that I see in summer camps. The problem is not the quality of the instructor, I ahve seen excellent teaching at all these places. The problem is that they do group testing and that is a violation of the BSA advancement policies. Scouts must earn merit badges based on individual testing. Asking a group of scouts a first aid question and giving every one credit for the answer is like asking one person at a shooting range to fire at a target and giving everyone there his same score.

You asked how lack of training could jeopardize a scouters liability protection, and I offered an example that shows genuine negligence on the part of a volunteer and I am asking if the BSA who is self insured should be expected to defend and finance such negligence. I will open the question up to other posters. If you were the BSA what would you do about the commissioner in this story?

F Scouter here are the flaws in your Sam's Club Plan. A bSA unit cannot sel a branded product or service in uniform or using the BSA name or image, in the advertising, selling or delivery of the product or service. If you had a young man come up to you in street clothes offering to sell you store bought popcorn at an increased price without telling you where he was from or where the money was going would you buy it? The other problem is overages. In the three councils where I have been involved in Popcorn Sales the council took back any full cartons of unsold product so that they would not deduct from the units profits. I'm not sure you could get Sam's to do that. Ed, I undertand that the hoagies are not producing any financial support to the council you serve as a commissioner. That is why I am asking if your troop then makes an FOS donation that is large enough to make up for not selling popcorn PLUS what they would normally give in FOS from the families. Or do you do the hoagies so that you can keep all the money for yourselves and let the units that do popcorn and participate in FOS provide the council services for your unit at their expense rather than your own? Yours is the only troop I ever heard of where FOS was not done as a unit presentation and the total pledged not announced to the unit, very odd indeed. Your District professionals keep a history of unit by unit FOS totals. I know they would be happy to share that information to you. Madkins How do you determine something a major or minor fundraiser until after you see what the profits were? It would seem that the scouting way would be to do your best on any activity. Not decide before which you would do well at and which you will not. BW

Actually anyone can help teach, but only a registered, approved counselor can test.

The as far as accident and liability, If you ask an insurance agent I believe you will discover that the trailer becomes a part of the vehicle that is towing it. As far as theft, whether the equipment is stored inside the church or in a locked trailer outside the church the property protection policy of the church should cover it. You need a talk with the insurance agent. Either way it is the Co's decision if they do not want to be responsible for a trailer than you should not be looking for a way around their decision, you work for them.

I also said that the people o this forum who complain anbout popcorn complain about every thing else in scout too, so I at least get half the points for Prairie Scouter's post don't I? By the way what I said was that those who do not sell it or are not good at it are the ones who want to get rid of it. The fact is popcorn over all is very successful for most units. As an example, as a cubmaster, the pack I served always had a net pack profit of $9,000- $11,000 each year. This was in a town of about 24,000 people and we were just one of several packs in town. Why am I not surprised that you complain even about something you say you do good at in scouting? Out of curiosity how good did your unit do? Packsaddle. There is more that one popcorn supplier remember that up to now this has been a council activity not a BSA nationally sponsonsored one, so individual councils can contract whoever they want. Because of that prices and selection can vary from council to council. In our council prices range from $8 to $30 depending on the product you select. Average sale price per container is just over $13.

Didn't you say that the church, the units chartering organization, the folks that OWN the unit, did not want the troop to have a trailer?

7 scouts X 195 hoagies X $5 = $6825 gross sales $6825 X .41 (the profit Ed said they made) =$2798.25 profit 7 Scouts X 45 average popcorn containers X $13 = $4095 gross sales $4095 X .68 the gross profit on popcorn) = $2784 profit If you choose to do the hoagies (where you will need to sell 433% more product than if you sold popcorn... not double), will your troop's FOS be more half of what you make PLUS what you would normally give in FOS? And out of curiosity, how much did you make selling hoagies and pizzas at $5 each? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I agree with Dan. Until more scouters (old and new) accept the personal responsibility to learn and follow the program no outside force can MAKE them do it. Hang on to sails and let go of anchors.

I am not surprised to hear that the decisions was made carefully and the money well spent. The Pacific Harbors council has an excellent Scout Executive. He is one of the best professionals I have ever met or served with. Not only is he a good administrator but a dedicated scout and unit leader. It is never easy to sell a camp, but it is compounded by the few scouters who feel that without the council owning the land that their memories are no longer valid. Sometimes tough decisons have to be made for the benefit of the future of the program. I hope your scouting is going well 89 camper Now then concerned....if the council does not own the camp who does?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is not a glass half empty of half filled situation Ed, this is an example of how untrained or unknowledgable leaders put the entire program at risk. If the commissioner in our story was current on his training, or had read the resources that a comissioner is expected to know, or had done his job in guiding the cubmaster to the official resources of the BSA then there would be a very good ceremony with no injuries and no lawsuits. Now granted the cubmaster had he been trained should have known what the right thing to do would be. But he was told by a BSA representative to hold the boy upside down. So the BSa HAS to defend him. If you were the BSA Ed what would you do with a commissioner that was the core of all the damage, hurt a scout, and had cost the pogram millions of dollars?

Ed You are missing a big part of the picture. First is your council Scouting makes 66%-68% profit, the unit gets to keep 34%, but the gross profit is the amount earned by the council AND the unit. As you point out helping earn money for the good of the entire local scouting community is an important part of what popcorn sales is all about. Let's say every scout in your troop sold $600 in popcorn, your unit would make almost$1400 in profit on top of the prizes. What was the total of your troops FOS contribution last year? Let's say every family in your troop gave $125 (the approximate cost for the council to serve each scout each year). That would be around $800. So combined with the popcorn and FOS your troop raised about $2200 for the council. So if you didn't do popcorn this year and chose instead to do hoagies would you be giving over $2000 to the council for FOS? Our popcorn sales average out to be about $13 per container sold. To raise 2800 in profit each scout in your troop would have to sell 195 hoagies or pizzas BUT only 45 containers of popcorn on average. Not that $5 isn't a good price for a hoagie, but are you trying to sell sandwiches or trying to raise money for a program?

No, You need to be trained to limit your exposure to damages from liability suits. If for instance you take a scout group white water rafting without having first done any training for the event, when the G2SS, specifically tells you to in the sweet 16 of safety, you are being negligent in you respoonsibilities. You were told in basic training about the Sweet 16, and about the G2SS, and about training prior to an activity. But if you did not attend training, and didn't know about the G2SS, and didn't know about the Sweet16, and didn't know you should have gotten some training first, THEN you are a litigious anchor around the neck of the entire program. The BSA cannot afford to insure negligence. If you do not show some effort to have followed the policies and procedures of the BSA then you risk your personal finances not those of Scouting. The most important step a scouter can take to safeguard the health and well being of the scouts they lead as well as their own finances is to GET TRAINED. Here is what could be a real life example. A cubmaster needs a ceremony for presenting a bobcat badge to some Cub Scouts. The CM asks his unit commissioner for a ceremony. The Unit commissioner says "when I was a CM I used to turn the boys over and hold them up while they are upside down and put the badge on them. Then when they are turned over the badge is upside down and they have to do a good turn to turn it over." So, taking the commissioners advice the CM begins the ceremony, but when holding a scout upside down he gets a back injury causing him to drop the scout on his head. The scout sustains a severe spinal injury and the parents decide to sue the Cubmaster. The BSA must defend the Cubmaster even though he violated a specific regulation of the BSA, BECAUSE a commissioner, a respresentative of the BSA program, told him he could do it. The BSA then looks to the comissioner WHO is supposed to know the rules or at least know where to find them. They discover that the commissioner did not know of the rule because he never read the Cub handbook, he never told the CM to look in the handbook for an approved ceremony, or to look in the BSA "Ceremonies for the Pack and Den" book for a ceremony. By not knowing, not using, and not following the BSA program a scout was severly injured and the BSA paid millions in a judgement. Now if you were the BSA and found out that the commissioner had a significant scouting background and trained other scouters, and made this big of a mistake, what would you as the BSA do?

You might consider instead of saying you saw it on-line to first familiarize yourself with the Advancement Committee policies and Procedures manual and say "I learned this from reading a current BSA manual. God forbid units start operating based on information they find on-line. Let's deliver scouting according to the BSA resources.

Starwolfmom, Be afraid, be very very afraid. First off the hat rack mom cannot do that. As a den leader she cannot be the CR or a committee person such as treasurer. As the CR she cannot be a den leader or committee member but she could be the committee chair. The Cubmasters #! job is to plan and lead the pack meetings. If he isn't going to do that then there is no point in him being a cubmaster. At your next leaders meeting I suggest you get a discussion going of what went well at this activity and what could have gone better. Then ask WHO is going to take responsibility for seeing that the improvements take place. Good luck, I am afraid you may need it. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)