Bob White

While you cannot tie a specific attendance number to "active" in a troop program, you can tie it to "membership". Units that keep non-participating Scouts on the roster are as much to blame for the problem of inactive scouts suddenly showing up for advancement as the Scout himself is. I am in a business organization that requires you to attend a weekly meeting (not unlike in Boy Scouts) we are allowed only 3 absenses every 6 months after which we recieve three written warnings and on the next absense your membership fee (which is a lot more than what we charge in Scouting) is forfeited and you are out of the organization. If you want back in you can reapply but your chances are slim. If you have a scout with a behavioral problem rather than worry about his advancement why not reconsider his membership. I would wager that might get his attention more than anything else.

momof7scouts I like what you describe the troop is doing but are you saying that it is tied to the advancement requirement in some way? Or is it just an effort to get more communication and committment from the family as a whole?

mmhardy, Aren't the Scout Oath and the Scout Law the codes of conduct for the scouts and the leaders in the troop? What behavior problems have you had that are not addressed by the points of the Scout Oath and Law. My first impression would be that you do not need another code of conduct. What you need is a program that teaches the values of Scouting.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Either way, run this by the District fundraising subcommittee for approval." District fundraising committees are usually only responsible for FOS and council fundraising efforts and have no legal authority for approving the use of the BSA name and logos. The use of the the BSA logos and likenesses require the approval of an agent of the BSA, in every council I have been in that is the council's Scout Executive. Check with your local scout office to see who you submit Unit Money Earning Applications to.

lizard62 There is no need to have a college education or to be a Scoutmaster to understand or support the methods of scouting and to motivate scout aged youth. You only need to accept a few fundamental concepts. 1)Youth like adventure and will do whatever they need to do in order to attain adventure. 2) Advancement is not a goal it is a measure of learning and a recognition of skill and accomplishments. 3) Youth respond better to positive reinforcement than to consequences. 4) Teenagers rarely want to do what parents want them to even when is is for their own benefit. So how can you make those concepts work to your advantage? My counsel would be to stop pushing advancement and instead recognize and reward positive characteristics that your son displays that are related to the skills and values of scouting. What is more important to you? That your son has an Eagle patch, or that your son grows into a man of good character who makes ethical decisions. What do you think is more important to your son? That he earns the Eagle patch or that he feels that you love and respect him? How a parent chooses to motivate their son should be based on the answers to those questions.

How parents choose to motivate their children is up to them isn't it? Our role is not to determine who has the better parenting skills but to deliver the Scouting program. How is a parent saying that you can't go to a school activity until you finish the merit badge any different from the troop that tells the scouts you can't go on the canoe trip unless you are First Class? How is you cant get you drivers license until you are Eagle different from you can't be a JASM until you are an Eagle? I see just as many units setting arbitrary goals for scouts as parents do. My concern is the number of trained leaders who continue to focus on advancement and getting scout to advance, rather than on adventure and activities that require scouts to learn and apply new skills as they prepare for and participate in the adventure, so that advancement is the by-product of participation rather than the reason for participation. Advancement is a tool not a goal. It is a measurement and recognition of a scouts growth not the cause of, or the purpose for, the growth. Off to the side... Being a nagging parent neither helps nor hinders the Scouting program. It only effects the relationship between the youth and his or her parent. Whether the effect is positive or negative is a risk taken by the parent that rarely pays off in the long run. It is not our role as Scouting volunteers to change parents, our job is to change youth long before they become parents.

As with any fundraising effort for the unit, you are required to complete and submit a Unit Money Earning Appplication to the council explaining in detail the activity. Since you would be giving the appearance that these commercial products or services are being "endorsed" using the images and logos of the BSA, there would be the expectation that the council will not approve it. However, you never know till you try. If the Scout executive says you can then..you can.

Beavah writes, "However...If the committee chair wants to extend that safety precaution to all of the unit's activities then your correct response is "Okay". Provided that position is voted on by the committee to establish it as a policy. The CC cannot establish policy on her own. " That would be incorrect. The role of the committee members is to carry out assignments given them by the committee chair. I am unaware of anything stating that the committee must vote on a "policy" determined by the committee chair. And as John has pointed out the CR also has the authority to implement any policy that does not conflict with BSA policies. Actually dhendron, it is the policies determined by the crew that require approval by the committee and not the other way around.

When you consider that there are thousands of communities in the country with scouting units, aren't you jumping to a very unsubstantiated conclusion by assuming that since there are no Scouts in your parades that no one has scouts that participate in parades? Have you asked you local scout leaders why there are no troops present at your local parades? They would probable have a better chance of knowing the reasons than people on the internet who do not live in your community. Just a thought.

"I guess we should all be blessed to live in an area like BW. Where the funding of scouts is not an issue, SctDad, Please explain how your ability to say and do the right thing is somehow tied to other people's income or their choices on how to spend their money? Families do not have to purchase the uniform for you to say what the uniform is, without altering it. I do not uinderstand how you manage to blame your inability to excercise your responsibilities as a scout leader because of what you perceive other people's financial status to be. The Uniform is a Method of Scouting and is no less important than any of the other Methods.

That is so wrong on so many levels beavah that one barely knows where to begin. Are you saying that a unit leader has no obligation to use the Methods of Scouting? Are you saying that the leaders are taught correct uniforming in their basic training just to kill 15 minutes? Does any resource anywhere in the BSA say that the Cub and Boy Scout uniform is not the entire uniform? But more importantly do you say that as a commissioner have no responsibility to represent the the programs, policies, and procedures of the BSA? If thats what you think then you need to revisit your basic commisoner training. I don't make these things up in my sleep Beav, this stuff has been around a long time and it's in all the training and several easily found resources. All that is asked is for the leaders to teach the BSA program information, it's the choice of the parents and scouts to do the right thing or not, but when even commissioners like you don't support the right information its no wonder that more people are so badly misinformed as to think they can alter the uniform as they please. You say that the correct uniform is not an important thing. Well if you cannot be truted in doing small things right then who should trust you to do the important things right? Ethical decision making starts with the volunteers. If you aren't willing to follow the program and give people the correct information then there is no way that anyone in the units you serve to know the actual program. Let's hope that there are more Amethysts in the program and that they have long healthy tenure in Scouting.

I swear if tap dancing was a part or Dancing with the Stars I would think you were auditioning for the show. What relationship does a parent's ability to buy scout uniform pants have to a scout leader's responsibility to represent the BSA program correctly? Who are you to decide what a family could choose to spend their money on. And why, if you knew a unit had such a unit wide problem, are you you not working as an advocate to help them find official uniform parts for less, rather than advocate that they ignore the uniform rules? Do you honestly believe that every scout who wears camo or jeans with their uniform does so because they cannot afford the Scout pants? What choices a parent makes is up to them, but as a leader in scouting you have a responsibility to represent the program correctly. You continue to confuse this issue by mixing what the scout wears with the leaders responsibility to represent what correct uniforming is. They are two different issues. If you say that the correct uniform includes the official pants then you are not responsibible for what the parent or scout chooses to do, But to tell a unit or an individual that wearing camo, jeans, or other non-uniform piece is Okay is irresponsible and untrue. Parents can make theior own choices, but scout leaders should know and represent the scouting program, its methods, and its rules. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

SctDad You have already been shown where the BSA says not to wear non-uniform apparel with the Scout uniforms, but you say you will not support that unless it specifically says camo? That's inane.

Props to those who support the candidate finding his own project. Encourage Scouts to look for opportunities to help others. Suggest they go talk to people in their church, school and community and seek their suggestions on things that need to be done, or problems that need solving. This is important growth development for the candidate, to see things that need to be done and come up with a solution and a plan to address it. "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

Not all Boy Scout outings require a tour permit, and a cub attending a Boy Scout outing would not file a tour permit.

technology changes things. Drums and smoke signals were replaced by by flags and telegraph, were replaced by telophones and walkie talkies. New technology replaces old technology. I have no doubt that someday we will take out our I-Pod/GPS unit and emit a low level laser beam that will split the log. But for now there is rarely need for the use of a handax. Just as you rerely see a farmer pushing a plowshare through a field. You think he wasn't happy to get a horse, and then an International Harvester? Technology is not a bad thing, Remember only the governemnt had computers and they took up an entire room? What skill in the current handbook do you see closer to besed out? Even loggers rarely use hand axes.

Who said harp SctDad? Is harping how you lead? All that you are asked to to is give correct information. When you or others explain what the scout uniform is why would you not be able to say that it consists of official uniform pieces and should not be mixed with non-uniform pieces? Little League coaches don't seem to have that problem, neither do the high school football or basketball coaches. Even the military that some scout leaders and scouts want to partially dress up as don't allow mixing uniform with non-uniform pieces. And yet you as a scout leader say you can't support it. Why is that? You aggreed to lead the BSA program, no one authorized you to alter it's uniform. No one asked you to harp, they asked you to give accurate information. Amethyst seems to already understand that. Why a Scouts leader would choose to do the wrong thing remains a mystery to me.

As the CR selecting Committee chairs for the three units is your job. Then workinging with each of the to select and train unit committees. Keep in mind that each program requires a completely different kind of committee. Since you seem to relate that the unit programs are going well then yo do not seem to have leadership problems, all you need to solidy the fury-ure is to get your support structures in place, leaving you to focus on the maintaining the charter organization relationship. As some responsibilities get transfered from the unit leaders to the committees you will need to do some counseling to make sure the leaders nderstandt that this is a move being done to strngthen the overal program and share the workload and not being done out of a lack of confidence in the leaders. Glad to hear you have such an active program. BW

If by dated you mean a skill that has been in the handbook for a long time and is coming to the end of its usefulness I would offer the hand ax. The use of ground wood is widely prohibited, large parts of the country do not even allow wood fires. Fueled stoves are in abundant use. In most cases a small saw is of greater use than an ax. And axes are rarely carried by backpackers due to their weight. I would not be surprised to see axes removed from the handbook before too long. Like semaphore it is a skill that has become interested but has few applications.

HillBilly try and follow us on this Okay? Leave No Trace is just a title..a t i t l e. They probably considered something like "Good practicies for being responsible users of the outdoor resources when hiking or camping in the backcountry" but it didn't fit on the letter head. So they thought about the old camping axiom of "Take only photos and Leave only footprints" and thought...'leave only footprints' thats's not bad, how about 'leave only footprints? No that wouldn't work either said the guy from Georgia, what if you are in a field and there is nothing to impress you footprint in. You can't say leave your footprint if you can't actually leave your footprint. The Georgian pondered aloud. What can we leave, he muttered. Oh lets say 'Leave No personal belongings', no better yet "Leave something but not a bunch of stuff". No, that just doesn't sing, how about Leave no litter? No, we want to say more than that. What would be the our ultimate goal in preserving the outdoors for other to enjoy... Well...how about..."Leave no Trace". Wow! But let's remember it's only the title. What's important is the practicies within the program itself. Everyone agree? Show of hands. Leave No Trace it is then. Let the record show that only the guy from Gergia voted nay. WAIT....What if someone thinks that we actually expect people to not be able to leave a trace? What person would think that? It doesn't matter what do we do then. That's easy tell them that the actual name of the program is "Good practicies for being responsible users of the outdoor resources when hiking or camping in the backcountry" and ask them how the weather is in Georgia. So HillBilly..did we ever tell you what the actual name of the LNT program is? By the way how's the weather?

When you think about it Frank we are all, always, in-training. It's just that some have completed taking basic training, and some have not. Another point to consider is that being trained does not always mean you know more about the program or that you are a better leader, it just means you have been to the classes. When you, as the Scoutmaster, determines who can approve the various elements of advancement don't put as much stock in who wears a trained patch as you do in who understands the program, or who understands the skills and how to test them. The trained patch is a recognition for the person who completed the requirements, don't assume it always means they know the program. Make you decisions based on the skills and abilities of the individual not on the patches he or she wears. As far as the committee, it's not their job to determine who can sign off on advancements. Perhaps they need to be more concerned about getting trained themselves. I hope you have a great time as Scoputmaster, it can be an extremely rewarding as well as challenging, and remember you are always in-training. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagle92 I have no idea where you got the idea that I wished anyone out of the program, or why you chose to make up such an outlandish statement. Read this carefully and slowly so that there is no misunderstanding...I never said that scout who has not yet obtained his complete uniform should be criticized or punidhed in any way. The only thisn I said was that A Scout Leader has no authority to alter the BSA uniforms by telling a parent that the scout can wera camo, or jeans, or dockers or any other Non-uniform piece of apparel innstead of getting a complete uniform. There is no excuse for a leader not knowing what the correct uniform is. And there is no reason for a Scout Leader to not encourage, support and communicate to parents and scouts what the correct uniform is. To do so speaks poorly of the leaders understanding of his or her responsibilities as a program leader. It is an intentional choice to do the wrong thing and it harms the program and the scout at many levels. Amethyst understands this. She said so in her opening post. She realizes that the unit she is in should not support the use of camo or other apparel instead of the offical uniform. She has less experience than many others on this forum but she made a better decision than some of them have. I don't wish her gone I wish her cloned. Scouting would benefit greatly from haviong more leaders who took the time to learn how to make the right choices rather than making excuses for why they purposely make the wrong choice.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"since we can fund troop overhead independent of the scouts fund raising they get to keep 100% of the profits from fund raising" So in other words you are employers you are not fundraising. You are paying the scouts a wage for their work. People are paying you under the misrepresentation that the money supports the Scouting program are in fact paying personal wages. You are likely in violation of a number of employment laws. Not to memntion the lawsuits that could develop should a scout become injured "on the job". You should be thankful that is not a popular activity and would be wise to cease it all together immediately.

Once you decide to do things incorrectly its easy to come up with all kinds of reasons to justify the decision. The interesting thing is that once you decide to do things right you can find just as many reasons to support that decision as well. Character is not displayed in the reasons you come up with, it is shown at the time you make the choice to do it right or wrong. No one says you need to wear new uniform pieces. For almost a year or more the BSA gave significant discounts when you purchased the shirt and pants together, and yet some leaders still chose to misinform the families regarding the correct uniform and to misrepresent the program by encouraging improper uniform. For generations parents have taught their children that no one cares what excuses you can manufacture, what matters are the choices you make. It's still true today. Amethyst was right from the beginning, the uniform does not include jeans, camo, or other non-uniform pieces of apparel. It is unfortunate that people agree to lead the program, they just don't want to have to follow the program. Lets hope this generation finds other adults willing to set a better example. There is simply no justification for knowingly doing the wrong thing.

Another PowerPoint Tip When you print out a presentation outline it will print as black text on white regardless of the look of the presentation. Also if your projector is bright enough to use outdoors you will still be able to read light text on a dark background better. (Personally I still prefer the use of flip charts outdoors.) BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)