Bob White

What rule are you speaking of? A rule that controls Service stars? No such rule exists.

Hi Dean If it isn't about ethical decision making and personal integrity then what is it? And....never good ones, and No, he says he doesn't.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Steve, once they put the scout uniform on and identified themselves as scouts from a specific Pack they made it a scout unit activity, and as such must adhere to BSA policies and regulations...even if the event itself is not theirs. And while they do not appear to have violated any Safety Regulations, if they identified themselves as Scouts when raising the money for their leader then they did indeed violate BSA policies regarding fundraising and uniform usage.

Nothing in the story says they violated any rules of the event. Had the operators of the event felt that the scouts were unsafe then they had the authority, the opportunity, and the responsibility to simply say that they could not participate. It is obvious that that was not done. That is not relevant however since the accusation on this forum was that they violated BSA policies. When in fact, if you take the time to look at a very short video, you will not see any BSA policies being violated. In fact you will only see some being adhered to. Your background as a lifeguard though admirable is irrelevant, as you do not need to be a lifegurd to know or identify elements of safe swim defense and other BSA safety policies. You will however need an understanding of the event, which you will only get if you watch the brief viseo. You can make a comparicon between what you see and what the BSA policies are and you will notice that there is no evidence of any policy transgressions. Convincing the event operators of letting the scouts keep their shirts on is neither a Safety violation or a violation of any point of the Scout Law.

Gunny, you really need to view the video, you have made some totally unsupported comments about an event that you admit you have no information on even though a video is available to you. Also you have yet to identify a single BSA policy that violated.

Now John, you know full well there are no patch polce. There is simply the uniform regulations of the BSA and the personal integrity of the individual and how it affects the choices they make.

Here's a wild idea Dean, Since you now live in a different council pay THEM your OA membership and correctly wear the OA flap for the council where you reside. Then you would have no reason for wearing the membership recogonition without actually being a member in good standing. I know it must sound crazy to you, but.... It's not about rules are rules...it's about making ethical choices based on the values of scouting.

SctDad, Maybe the answer to your question is that you are incorrect about your premise, and I am trying to get you to reconsider what the real problem is. I am not the only poster who has tried to explain the real problem to you.

One wonders why mom is telling you rather than telling the local scout council? And why you are telling us and not telling the local scout council?

I have no idea how we got off on this track but....No one said that they cannot go to community groups for funds Nike! Only that it is against the BSA regulations to raise funds for anything other than materials and supplies. He cannot raise money to pay for labor as part of the project. There is nothing that says the labor must be volunteer. As long as the scout can show that he is the one leading the project and not someone else, he can have anyone working on the project he wants. Anything done in connection to the project should be a part of the project workbook. If he takes a donation to pay for labor I could see how that would be considered a violation of the regulations governing the projectand could be an issue. Returning to the thread topic, there is no minimum number of labor hours that the scout must put into the project or that the project must take for completion. As long as he spends sufficient time to demonstrate that he led and completed the project.

SctDad I think you underestimate the intelligence of the parents in the pack, and you over estimate the difficulty of preparing a meals for a weekend outdoors. If your parents are really that incapable then the pack could always supply the cooking heat, I would bet your parents know how to put food on heat to cook, even if they somehow don't know how to start a fire? That way even if the kids don't get direct input into the meals at least their parents know what they like. You will find menu planning and food prep works best for small groups of 2 to 8 people.

Okay let me see if I understand SctDad. Because there might be Webelos Leader who was not been trained in time for an event on the calendar that he knew was coming, then the Cubmaster has to choose to go to a Webelos event rather than take the training he needs or wants, instead of just having the Webelos leader take the Den camping once he gets trained. And because of that, you want the Council to change an event date even though you arent going to either event anyway? Did I get that right? If I got any of the facts wrong please let me know what it was.

The candidate cannot raise money to pay for labor as part of the project. He is only allowed money to raise money for materials and supplies.

The only value in estimating labor hours is for the scout to have a way for calculating the number of days and the size of the work force. It is also used by the BSA as an easy way of explaining the amount of service that Scouting provides communities through the Eagle Advancement requirement. As a way of determining the value of a project or the ability of the candidate to apply leadership skills to the event, the number if hours estimated to do the project is a worthless and foolish measurement. The BSA states that there is NO minimum number of hours. Which means that no one, not a unit leader, not a committee member, not even the distrcit or council can use a hour measuremenmt to determine the appropriateness of a project. What the BSA says, and this is the only time allotment it uses, is that the project must take sufficient time for the candidate to show the use of leadership skills. That is what the scoutmaster, committee and district advancement committee need to be focused on...the use of leadership skills, not the number of hours. If the Scout estimates 80 hours, and the project takes 60 it is not a worse job of leadership, and if it actually takes 100 it is not a better job of leadership. To use the estimated hours for anything other than budgeting time and workforce is illogical. I can only guess that people who make such odd recommendations have little or no experience in actually planning projects. Stick to the BSA requirements, they are what they are for a reason.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Den cooking for family campout's is often not practical. Its family camping, the idea is that the camp as a family and the Pack provides program activities. If you want to do food as a group do a dessert. What are you talking about SctDad??? At no time did I mention any rules or regulation on this topic, why do you blurt out something as unrelated as that? You want help, I'm offering help. Family camp out family meals, Webelos Den Campout, Den Meals. Troop Camping...Patrol Meals. You want easy and effective then take the advice to follow the program recommendations. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ummmmm, but SctDad, even if there were only one event scheduled that day how would it make a difference for you. You have a personal activity that you have already said you were going to that day. So why does it even matter to you that the day is double booked by the council? Why complain to the council about an event date that you aren't even going to be involved in??? All the people going to the UofS that arent' Webelos leaders probably have no problem with the date, And the Webelos leaders can go the UofS another time when they are no longer Webelos Leaders. So why should the council be motivated by your concern when you aren't even planning to be at either event? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually Anne in Cubs they do not camp as dens except for Webeolos. otherwise they are either family camping in which each family usually does their own cooking or in a Counil or District camp where their food is prepared for them. So I was using Webelos Den Camping as my Cub scout exemple. Perhaps I should have stated that. Unfortunately there ar Troops that do not allow or train the scouts to cook as patrols, and in those cases many times adults are still making the decisions on menus and even cooking for the scouts as a troop, treating the youth more like Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts.

Scouting is a teaching/learning experience. I have always let the scouts decide their meals on a campouts in Cub Scouts and in Boy Scouts. But we also taught them to make good decisions. First we teach them that anything that you can prepare at home in a kitchen you can prepare on a campout. Then we ask them about their favorite foods and favorite meals. Then we teach them about balaned diets . Finally we have them make a menu of some favorite meals that include a balanced diet using the food groups. They eat properly, they eat meals they like, and they learn good health habits. It's a youth program, teaching them to make good decisions and then letting them practice is what we do. What do they learn fron having adults make more decisions for them?

No, There are no required hours, nor is there a "scope" requirememnt ast to the size or the "lasting value" of a project. What the scout has to do is to meet the requirements established by the BSA and explained in the Eagle Service Project Workbook. For more information the resource you want to use is the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" manual avalible at you local Scout Shop. Best wishes to your son as he enters this next step in his advancement. BW

Again Lodge 489, your rank and your OA involvement have nothing to do with service pins. While you were 18 to 21 what program were you in? That is what matters. If you want to make things simple, being that you are an adult now you can combine ALL your years in the BSA regardless of whether they were as a youth or an adult member, and regardless of what program you were were in, and just wear your total years on a blue background star or stars.

"there were risks that the leaders took and may not have been aware of." Once again, you are guessing. You are assuming facts for which you have no evidence. You do do not know what the Leaders and parents discussed or anything that happened in the background or outside of the camera's view. The only thing you know is what is visible in the video and it does not show any BSA violations nor is the event prohibited by the BSA regardless of your personal feelings. The questions was not "do you approve?", it was "What BSA safety violations are shown?", there are none.

John, First state a policy that says he can't. The problem here is that you do not like the activity so you assume that the BSA has rules against it. Look at the list of prohibited activities. Do you see Polar Bear Swimming on the list? As long as the BSA safe swim defense policies are followed and the program is run in accordance with BSA safety regulations there is no prohibition on this activity. The video and news story gave no evidence of safety violations and in fact showed some of the required safety regulations in use. Your personal dislike for the activity is causing you to imagine BSA safety policies that simply do not exist. It is no different than when folks imagine that Cub Scouts and Boys Scouts can't use power tools, when the only prohibition is on chain saws and log splitters. Somehow, some leaders , based probably on their own discomfort with tools, extend that rule to cover all power tools. For some reason, some folks want to make the BSA policies far more restrictive than what they are.

University of Scouting is merely the title of an event it is not a formal syllabus. It is not a set group of classes and can be anything which that particular council wants to include at that event.

Fun and work are subjective to the individuals and cannot be expected to be used as criteria when selecting a calendar date. In your case Eagle 92 a person would think that if the OA new that over the years that date was hurting them that the OA would have ....picked a different date?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Now all you have to do in get in Pow Wow, Camporee, Klondike Derby, District and Council Pinewood, Scout Sabbath, Scout Sunday, Council Dinner, Eagle Recognition Event, Popcorn Kickoff, Summer Camp Kick-off, EVERY Major Holiday weekend, All the outdoor training courses you didn't nake, Train the Trainer, commissioners college, OA Conclaves, OA Workdays, NYLT, Staff development weekends for all kinds of events, Scouting for Food, popcorn pick-up Days, local major events such as parades and festivals that may involve units, Plus trying to avoid consecutive weekends for the same sub-groups. You left out more events then you calendarized SctDad. In addition you have restrictions based on avaible dates for your venues. Then you have staff availanblilities to consider. And the list I offered just scratches the surface of the total that make up all the possible activities that take place in a calenda yesr for scouting. Heck those aren't even all the weeeknds ones. Then you have Roundtables, uniot meetings, commitee meetings, leader meeting, junior leader meetings. There will always be multiple events some days. It just cannot be helped. It isn't just the activities committee that schedules events, it's also training, and finance, and commissioners, and units, and the community. Shoot, the unit I serve has days where we have three of four different things going on just in the unit. I'v got 60 dates on my unit calendar for 2009 and we haven't even added District and Council events yet, that's just unit activities. I guarantee you there are gonna be several days where there will be event conflicts. Some of us will go one direction some will go another. It depends on what we need and what we want, And then some days I will miss them all and focus on the wife and home. The choices are mine to make it seems silly to me to blame the choices or the people that made the choices available. It doesn't matter how many activities are booked the same day, All I have to do is pick ONE, and then the rest do not matter. (This message has been edited by Bob White)