WAKWIB

I think sherminator summed it up pretty good. The mod was right on closing the thread on gays in scouting. It had gone way far from topic and was getting over-the-top ugly. I don't post much. But I read the forums frequently and in a fairly thorough manner. My politics and religion are very right of center. But this forum probably isn't the greatest place to have a knock-down, drag-out about it IMHO. And please take this as a kindly criticism from a lowly knave, but I think there are a few here that could learn something about the economy of words. (got to give Merlyn some credit on that score as he keeps his stuff short and sweet ). Also take a moment to re-read your post before you fling it. Don't be in such a hurry to throw your stuff on the wall that you fail to make sure it's packed correctly. As I mentioned in a post earlier this morning, we do well to remember that many eyes are on this forum. Most of us who post are active Scouters and we should make our posts keeping in mind that it reflects on our position and our organization.

I agree with others that this particular virtual campfire has gotten pretty cold...and the one on global warming is just about that way too. In both cases it's gone from decent intellectual sparring, to a lot of hijacking where the intent of the original post has virutally disappeared., and in the end they are just becoming a big whizzing contest to see who can get the last word in. It might be of some benefit to all of us to realize that even though the "issues and politics" department may touch on some hot topics, it shouldn't dissolve into personal attacks. One big reason is that this is a publically viewable forum, and one of the few public Scouter forums on the internet. It get lots of traffic from folks who may never post....possibly not even want to when they see some of these threads. Our conduct in this department may also cloud their view of what we have to say in the "important" departments on this site where we post on program, troop/pack operations,working with kids,etc. Every time we post, we are presenting a "voice" of Scouting. Particularly that of an adult Scout leader.(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

John-in-KC asks "Anyone have insights on how the Baptists, with their AWANA organization or Royal Rangers, handle youth working with social ministries these days?" I can answer in part. Our Baptist church has a group go to City Union Mission (John will know where that is at) and serve a meal once a month. It's an inner city mission. Our ministry group is a mix of adults and teens of both genders. Often we have up to 10 teens with us. Whether there is a specific mandate/requirement in our AWANA club for service, I don't know. Most of the kids that serve at the mission are in AWANA. There definately is a specific mandate in Scripture to serve the less fortunate, so that would trump AWANA anyway. Nearly all of the men I see at this facility, both the transients, and the ones going through "the program" don't generally fall into the stereotyped category of stumble-bum drunks or addicts. Many have fallen on hard-times through lay-off, messy divorce, health issues etc. Many of them take the time to thank the kids for their service. In the case of this particular facility, I would have no problem at all taking Boy or Girl Scouts there to work. As long as you had at least two-deep leadership, and stayed only in the part of the shelter where you are allowed. Now, this is a very well established and very secure facility in the inner-city, so they have had a lot of practice in their field, and it may not relate on all points to the situation described in the original post. Some of the comments posted sort of tick me off in that they seem to go way beyond concern for scout safety and paint the homeless as sub-human. Remember, you may need a hand of friendship and warmth someday! I have a little joke with a friend of mine about my service at the mission. I tell him I'm putting in my "sweat-equity" cause in tough times like this, it wouldn't take much for me to find myself in need of the mission's help.

I imagine that the council, where the recent incident that started this thread occurred, will see an increased interest in YP training for the youth. Much like infoscouter posted about his council. The youth are the ones who need the more intensive and direct training in my opinion. We want them to be able to clearly see what it is they are called upon to recognize, resist, and report. What leads one to think that it is "pointless" to show it more frequently than 5 years rather escapes me. True, you don't need to run it into the ground, but I don't think it's pointless for a kid to see it a couple of times in his scouting career. Again, I view it as frontline defense. And like lifesaving, first aid and a few other topics, it will help him at other times in his life. The typical sexual abuse incidents don't happen at the Scout meeting or campout. Nor are they always perpetrated by some creep who jumps out of the bushes. These men and sometimes women and sometimes even older teens, are predators who take a lot of time to lure the kids. If they pass the backround check, they have access. Clicking for a few minutes on the online YP is no deterrent to them. I guess I'm beating this tom-tom a lot because I was close to some incidents in my youth Scouting career. In my mind, the whole Youth Protection program is one of the most intelligent and relevant things Scouting has come up with in helping to educate youth and adults about a real-life danger.

I don't think the YP video "A Time to Tell" has really that much to do with the "birds and the bees." It mainly reinforces the 3 R's using some scenarios that kids could realistically find themselves in. Annually, it would probably be overkill. Maybe every two or three years. And I do agree it is not a great subject to bring up, but it's a resource that could help save a kid from the hell of sexual abuse. I feel especially concerned about the young men who come to scouting with no father in the home. I don't know if it's statistically true or not, but I think those are the ones who could be very likely targets for a predator. I know that when we have done the video in the past, some of the single mothers I spoke with afterwords were thankful that we spoke to this subject because it was something they felt their sons definately needed to know but they weren't sure quite how to cover it.(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

....and I should amend that question. Not just the little book in front of the handbook that may or may not really get used. But the whole course presented at a troop meeting every year or so.

Yes I was just making a rather weak explanation to HiLo about what the sodomy charges might mean. I did not read the article. Don't want to, really. The whole idea sickens me. A side note. We all know that every leader must take Youth Protection training. Do you think it's time to make the training materials for the kids a mandatory thing as well??

The laws are different in each state concerning sodomy. For this particular charge it appears they chose an ordinance to hang on this guy that had a level of specificity. He alledgedly do not simply touch or molest a child, but possibly engaged in a specific sex act. We often see "sodomy" (which I think in some states is defined as anal and/or oral sex) attached to charges of rape as well. No, the sex-police don't check to see what hetro or homo couples are doing in the privacy of their own homes.

Any competition/contest is helpful in driving the patrol method. I suggested to our PLC about 8 years ago the idea of a cooking contest. They've gone bonkers with it ever since. The patrols actually compete in two different ones each year. One in the fall and one in late winter/early spring. Both contests take place on campouts--(although we did have a dutch oven cobbler contest at a troop recruiting night a couple years ago). The fall contest is whatever the patrol decides for the menu. Usually cooked in a dutch oven but other methods have been used. The other contest is specifically a chili cook-off. Travelling trophies for each contest to the winning patrol. SPL, ASPL, and 18yr.+ leaders are the taste testers and vote for the winner. This year my attendance hasn't been that great, but in previous years the cooking contests were the "must-go!!" camp-outs for me. One young man from the troop discovered his passion for cooking through his experience with Scouts. Currently going to college for a food service/chef type of degree.

Right now in Kansas City, it's 8 degrees F, and it's the middle of the day and sunny. Tonight the forecast is for -3 F. Totally off topic. But, I suppose if your going to look at the BSA "from the outside" around here you'd best be wearing your hat and mittens.

For Pint: I'm sure Scouting in the UK has a published set of goals, objectives, outcomes etc..., that provide some foundation for the program. I'm interested in what they are. For comparison's sake, this is how it's roughly laid out for the 11 through 17 age group Boy Scout program here in the States. The Aims of Scouting: Character Development Citizenship Training Personal Fitness The Methods of Scouting: Ideals (that would be the Scout Oath and Law) Patrols Outdoor Programs Advancement Association with Adults Personal Growth Leadership Development Uniform By the way, it is encouraging to see from your posts that Scouting continues to do quite well in your country.

ljnrsu, Many thanks for posting that update. Although I never posted anything on this thread because I have had no experience or exposure to such an involved process, I have read through the entire thing starting when it first began last spring. She got a lot of great advice from many here. Also, I am sure she got a bit weary of reading how she was holding things back, how her son may have been "worse" than her posts suggested, and here lately, of how she is simply an "attention junkie." Hopefully you or her can let us know the outcome when it comes to pass. I'm sure she greatly appreciates you taking the time to personally help her and her son through this challenging episode.

Well, it would be nice if the scientists would get their act together and pull us out of the abyss. According to Prince Charles in his speech at Copenhagen, our days are numbered and quite short. Says the Prince: "For the grim reality is that our planet has reached a point of crisis and we have only seven years before we lose the levers of control." http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/15/prince-charles-speech-copenhagen-climate Wishing one and all a blessed and productive 2010 from the heartland of America where it is a balmy 9 degrees (F). WAKWIB

HiLo, I think there was a bit of perception on a part of the troop adults who caused the ruckus, that the presenter of the church training was minimizing the value of BSA YP and somehow we were under-trained. This apparently got things off to a bad start. I was not in that class session so I'm relying on reports from one of the angry troop leaders (who has a tendency to make mountains out of mole-hills), and from our COR who spoke to the issue at a subsequent committee meeting. There was some confusion about the reporting of incidents. BSA YP insists that any suspected incident is reported to the council SE pronto. The Safe Sanctuary training wants the pastor notified pronto. The dilemma that seemed to get the troop folks in a knot was their notion that ONLY the council SE be notified and no one else. According to our COR who spoke with the second-in-command professional at the council (his official title escapes me at the moment) the right thing to do is inform both simultaneously. What happened was a momentary clash between a training presenter who had no clue of BSA's Youth Protection program and policy, and two of our troop committee members who, frankly, have a history of getting worked-up easily and were a bit territorial when it came to their view of how the troop should work. In the end, the issue was worked out and forward motion continues.

The position and power of the CO in the BSA structure is somewhat underrated, I suppose. But, given the right issue, the CO can carry a big stick. Case in point, the UMC church which sponsors our Troop suddenly decided last spring that all youth leaders in the church (which would include all leaders in the troop) would need to take the official UMC course called Safe Sanctuary. From my understanding it is similar to what we get in BSA Youth Protection. They gave us a window of time to get all troop leaders through it. I'm still on the "to-do" list but will-do when I can. Long story short, several of the troop adults got in a twist at the first session of this class. They basically badgered the instructor that BSA YP was all they needed, that they would only follow BSA YP protocol and would not sign the document that they would submit to the church's Safe Sanctuary guidelines. All this was done, according to several reports, in a less-than-cheerful spirit. I was present at a committee meeting shortly thereafter where a letter was read by our COR from the Pastor of the church. In short and this is my ad-lib, "do this Safe Sanctuary training, and do it with a smile, or this Troop which has been a part of this Church for 50 years will have to find another place to meet. Period." The only reason I felt it appropriate to post this is that there are many who view this forum who might say "I don't know who our COR is?" or "The IH of our Charter Org. never shows up at anything?" That may simply mean that everything is going swimmingly in the relationship. Try obstructing the CO's policy deployment, and you will likely get to know those people really fast!

bummer

A bit late, but Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all on this forum. To Pint: Scouters in 'pubs' at this time of year, at least in my town, is a common sight during this time of year. Particularly among the camp staff alumni in Kansas City. If I wished, I could find 4 or 5 such gatherings tonight as, for some mysterious reason, the "boys" of the Bartle Scout Reservation choose this night to party and mingle. I limit myself to just one such gathering that is close to home...and most of the time serve as a designated driver.

"I know this post could read as a little confrontational, and I really don't want to offend anyone, but those last few posts discussing the huge influence of conservative Christians on Scouting in the USA were a bit of a surprise to me. Do the Christian church connected Scouting units accept members from other religions, or even from other denominations?" For HiLo. Yes, a large number (perhaps the majority, although I have no figures) of our units in America are sponsored by churches and synagogues. And of that group the chief Christian denominations that sponsor are Catholic, Methodist, Prebyterian,and the Latter-Day Saints. Yes, in most cases, a church sponsored unit will accept members from other denominations. The unit I serve is sponsored by a Methodist church. We have boys and leaders from various other denominations and also some with no church affiliation at all. That is the relative norm here in the states. "Conservative" in the context of churches in America that sponsor units is a bit harder to pin down. That gets into a lot of other issues. In my opinion, the church that sponsors our troop tends to fall into the liberal spectrum of Christianity. Here on this forum alone you would find many Christians who have different doctrinal perspectives and varying views on the interpretation of the Scriptures and we could have a "Conservative vs. Liberal" debate from now until Jesus comes back. Maybe the interesting thing in that, is when it comes to the nuts-and-bolts of the Scouting program most of us can put all that on the back burner and work together as a team. Obviously, however, the historical Christian view of the practice of homosexuality does color the debate within Scouting here in America.

HiLo, Actually, heavy snowfalls here in Missouri are not that strange. But over the last few years we have had fairly mild winters with not so much snow and ice. When I was a little kid it seemed like there was more snow on the ground for the entire winter. In my opinion, climate change is a natural, cyclical process. The world's vast oceans are the primary weather engines. Humans only occupy a relatively small portion of the earth's surface and I do think that the general pollution controls we have employed over the last 30 years or so have greatly reduced the amount of junk we throw into the atmosphere. Continuing to make fossil fuel consumption a cleaner operation will be a help and should be a mandatory goal. Sometimes I get the feeling that the super hyper-AGW folks think the world would be a better place without humans. It also seems to me that the United States is styled as the chief villian, and somehow we need to pay a penalty for having a very successful country compared to many others. I happened to catch a clip of Hugo Chavez of Venezuela speaking in Copenhagen and the gist of the speech was largely "Capitalism Bad, Socialism Good", and if Capitalism would just die and go away the climate would be healed. I tend to think that the discussion of climate change (at least at conferences like Kyoto, Copenhagen etc) is very much infused with political and philosophical rhetoric which obscures whatever science that either supports or undermines the theory of AGW.

Have been enjoying this discussion for the most part. Learning a few things here and there. My current views on climate change are a bit skewed at the moment, as it appears that part of the polar ice-cap has taken wing and landed in Kansas City. ♫ oh the weather outside is frightful...!! ♫

Dear Santa, My wish is for more boys to join the Troop! Over the last few years we have had a sizable wave of very active Scouts "age-out". We're positioned and ready for new recruits. Hopefully, our rather large Cub Pack will help make this wish a reality. I have been a really good boy this year, WAKWIB (PS: I did not leave out any milk and cookies. Just help yourself to whatever is in the fridge. And, Santa, it's OK if you kiss my Mommy. She is currently single.)

Eagle92, Never lose that picture. Something that rare will be worth a fortune someday.

Jeff-O mentions some discouragement about a patrol-spirit issues ie. the 8 month process for the flag. Those types of things will pick up when the time comes to branch out into two or more patrols. Then a sense of competition should drive those types of things to move faster. The troop I serve was in your shoes when I first joined, but the Cub Pack eventually came through and we went from essentially from one patrol to four in about 2 years.

And, BP, a full scale recession does not mean that money has disappeared from the face of the earth. It does mean that corporations and foundations will be more discriminating in sharing their wealth. We still try to go fishing even when the last guy at the pond says they are not biting. A good SE should have the skill at putting together a strategy to position Scouting in the minds of those who will give when the time comes. It is a matter of competing with other causes for limited resources.

Everything said above is good advice. In the environment where I serve Scouting, we have great numbers, great retention, great facilities etc. There is not a lot to really complain about. But a trait I would love to see in our current or a new SE would be a focused plan to "sell" Scouting to the community. It seems that we lack the big corporate/philanthropic donor base we once had in the past. We have plenty of opportunities to pass the hat amongst the men and women who give that "just one hour a week." It seems to me that, in our Council we're asking that cow to give a lot of milk and not looking at the larger herd.