WAKWIB

Liz: Concerning a refund. This is not carved in stone, but you should probably expect a credit to the Troop's account at the council office. In my council, a cash-refund to individuals simply will not happen.

Beavah asks "Why do we do it?" Well, I suppose part of it is tradition. I suspect that chaplains, chapel services etc have been a part of the Scouting program from it's earliest days. There is also a perceived need. That is, we declare that a Scout is Reverent. So we feel compelled to provide some sort of outlet for that when Scouts are gathered at an event. At the summer camps in our council, we have a pretty good chaplaincy crew in place to meet the specific needs of the most common faith groups in our area. The generic things I've seen concocted at, for instance, Camporees and OA events mostly leave a lot to be desired (and I'm doing my best to be courteous on this point!!) Personal anecdote: I was raised a catholic, signed on with the lutherans when I got married, and now attend a fundamental, independent baptist church which most closely aligns with my personal doctrinal beliefs and practices. Had a vague belief system during my time in Scouting (I consider a specific point in time in 1987--age 27--as when I came to faith in Christ.) I look back and one point in my youth scouting time really made an impact and perhaps started me on "the path." That is when I was on staff at camp an was invited by a Jewish troop to attend their Friday evening service. They did it on a bluff that overlooked a beautiful river valley as sunset was approaching. Was it the view and setting, the beautiful Hebrew language, or the Holy Spirit? Maybe all of the above, but it was then that I began to have crystallized in my mind a notion of a personal God.

A song from one of my favorite rock bands, RUSH, expresses those times eloquently: BASTILLE DAY There's no bread, let them eat cake There's no end to what they'll take Flaunt the fruits of noble birth Wash the salt into the earth But they're marching to Bastille Day La guillotine will claim her bloody prize Free the dungeons of the innocent The king will kneel, and let his kingdom rise Bloodstained velvet, dirty lace Naked fear on every face See them bow their heads to die As we would bow as they rode by And we're marching to Bastille Day La guillotine will claim her bloody prize Sing, o choirs of cacophony The king has kneeled, to let his kingdom rise. Lessons taught but never learned All around us anger burns Guide the future by the past Long ago the mould was cast For they marched up to Bastille Day La guillotine claimed her bloody prize Hear the echoes of the centuries Power isn't all that money buys

oldsm: That's because Kansas City Scouts are the Best Scouts! Not that I'm biased or anything.....

While you may have a real reason for concern, the search thing to me seems a bit over the top. If you have strong enough reason to suspect a problem that you would consider the drug sniffing dogs, wouldn't it maybe just be better to confront the boy first. That may be enough to at least keep him from bringing the drugs along. If it's truly a case of suspected possession, I would think police rather than you should be handling a search process.

I understand the intent of your post, and the point is well taken. However, the term "rowdy" can be interpreted a number of ways, I suppose. It's all in the eyes and ears of the beholder. Could run the gambit from talkative to rape-and-pillage.

While Ed is cooking us up some pie in the dutch ovens, I think we should all sit around the campfire holding hands and sing "Kumbaya."

What is it that might be hindering a change in the eligibility requirements? I'm sure the topic of Venturing members in the Order of the Arrow has come up in more significant venues than this forum. I suspect that the gender issue does not weigh-in so heavily with the youth leadership in OA as it may with some of us, and is only a obstacle (and possibly a challenge worth working for) in their minds. Reconfigure a few guidelines and, presto, they are in. National seems to be interested in "giving the youth what they want." I think that this might be something they really want.

Part of the OA mission is to promote camping, and it would follow that they should promote camp staffing as well. A little comment on this and the other active co-ed threads. If I had to make a prediction it would be co-ed scouting in ten years. OA would of course follow. The majority of current scouters seem to be slightly ok, to radically enthusiastic about this possibility. The ones that are on the fence would adapt or find greener pastures. Now this overall positive attitude will NOT be the deal maker in National's decision to do this. It will be the perceived increase in revenue that will drive it exclusively.

"Does Mic-O-Say allow/encourage youth female membership? Why? Why not? BDPT00" Mic-O-Say is a Boy Scout specific program at this time. Female membership is limited to adult leaders. In our council we have two camps Bartle and Naish. Bartle is the place for MOS ceremonies etc. Naish is the place for OA ceremonies etc. Naish has seen more employment of under 21 females on staff than Bartle, and is the camp that John-in-KC is referencing in his previous posts. I can think of only one under 21 female that has served at Bartle over the last 10 years I have been "re-involved." Not sure why that is, but Barle usually draws a very large pool of boy staff applicants every year. Also has a very large pool of returning staffers. Quite a few stick with it for 4-6 years or more. The increasing levels of responsibility that they can accrue in MOS is a very big draw. There was a tremendous amount of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when the first female leaders were inducted into the Tribe back in the late '80s but now it's very common, encouraged, and accepted. Knowing that there has been a lot of girls on staff at Naish has made me wonder if/when OA would be open to them, but that has to come down from the powers that be. Should the day come when the "Boy" Scout program goes co-ed then OA and MOS will have to directly follow suit.

"Well, fwiw, in Mic-O-Say, they use horns on their necklaces to indicate if the adult received membership as a youth or as an adult. (turned in or turned out, don't know off hand which is which)." Those would be claws not "horns"; imitation of eagle claws to be precise. They are in pairs. Back-to-back with tips out, entered the tribe as a youth. Turned down, entered as an adult.

This has been a interesting thread to follow. I guess I have a strong case of tunnel vision as there is absolutely no compelling evidence in our Council of a membership level crises. Never really has been much of a problem here. We experienced a slight decrease in the late 70's and early 80's and that had much more to do with TAY than with the much maligned handbook of that time. It rebounded from that quickly. Some reason I think that Heart of America has been somewhat immune to membership issues in the Boy Scout division anyway. 1) a strong volunteer ethic in our community 2) a strong generational flow to scouting. Past Scouts seem to beget lots of future Scouts. Very traditional roots here. 3) an intense focus on the Cub Scout experience and a great facility for their level of "camping" 4) a strong emphasis on camping in the Boy Scout division. You are considered to be way out of whack if your troop does not camp once a month. Also a troop that does not go to summer camp somewhere isn't considered healthy at all. High Adventure (national bases, and other settings)is promoted heavily and accessed heavily. 5) the long-standing influence of the Tribe of Mic-0-Say local honor camper society. We also have a very strong Order of the Arrow Lodge. 6) The majority of Scouts in our area stay fairly active after the age of 15 and provide good leadership for patrols and troops as well as serving as Den Chiefs. We seldom, if ever. have a critical shortage of summer camp staff. In fact, you had better apply early and often if you wish to get the position you want. I don't mean this to sound like bragging. And I suspect there are many councils that can claim just as much of a strong, stable Scouting membership. Frankly I think National has a strong tendency or over-react to demographic trends. Their positions are justified by a perceived "need" to change things to "save" the program.

This has been a interesting thread to follow. I guess I have a strong case of tunnel vision as there is absolutely no compelling evidence in our Council of a membership level crises. Never really has been much of a problem here. We experienced a slight decrease in the late 70's and early 80's and that had much more to do with TAY than with the much maligned handbook of that time. It rebounded from that quickly. Some reason I think that Heart of America has been somewhat immune to membership issues in the Boy Scout division anyway. 1) a strong volunteer ethic in our community 2) a strong generational flow to scouting. Past Scouts seem to beget lots of future Scouts. Very traditional roots here. 3) an intense focus on the Cub Scout experience and a great facility for their level of "camping" 4) a strong emphasis on camping in the Boy Scout division. You are considered to be way out of whack if your troop does not camp once a month. Also a troop that does not go to summer camp somewhere isn't considered healthy at all. High Adventure (national bases, and other settings)is promoted heavily and accessed heavily. 5) the long-standing influence of the Tribe of Mic-0-Say local honor camper society. We also have a very strong Order of the Arrow Lodge. 6) The majority of Scouts in our area stay fairly active after the age of 15 and provide good leadership for patrols and troops as well as serving as Den Chiefs. We seldom, if ever. have a critical shortage of summer camp staff. In fact, you had better apply early and often if you wish to get the position you want. I don't mean this to sound like bragging. And I suspect there are many councils that can claim just as much of a strong, stable Scouting membership. Frankly I think National has a strong tendency or over-react to demographic trends. Their positions are justified by a perceived "need" to change things to "save" the program.

I was not a Cub. Myself and a number of others were recruited directly into Boy Scouts by a kid who really worked to sell the program to his friends. Can't believe that was almost 40 yrs. ago. It was definitely the allure of camping that drew me in. Flash forward to today: We have done outdoor recruitment events at the church which sponsors our pack and troop. Similar results to what has already been described. Generally these events have brought new kids to the pack, and a few transfer scouts from other troops. I can't think of one kid who came "off the street", so to speak, to join the troop as a result of recruitment nights we've held. Only by the influence of a Scout (and perhaps some adult influence as well) have non-Cub kids joined our troop. Those that fit that description have a good percentage of sticking with it all the way to Eagle in this particular Troop's experience.

What an amazing amount of work accomplished!! Your OA section should be very pleased with the service you were able to give!

I really have never heard of such a thing as a "summer-off" Troop in my area. It does seem to be rather common with Cub Packs. From my perspective, I'm glad I am involved with a "summer-on" Troop. My work runs in seasonal cycles and July and August are the months that I am available to participate the most. We seem to have a lot going on in the summer. Summer camp, of course. A canoe trip is an annual routine and I usually head that up on the adult side. High Adventure trips have become an every two year tradition. There are council Order of the Arrow events in May and August that we have some level of participation in. Our meetings are pretty productive although we do spend more time outside. The older Scouts seem to be eager to find some direction on rank advancement since with no school, etc, they have more time to work on merit badges and service projects. If you are a Troop that does actual Patrol activities, I think the summer time is a great time to do Patrol campouts or other excursions. Frankly, maybe a Cub Pack taking a couple months off might be justified. I can't say as I was never involved in that part of the program. But I think there is just to darn much to do in Scouting for a Troop to take a summer off!

A troop attending our summer camp has to have a laptop, and somebody who can navigate through whatever chaos they have chosen to do the merit badge records. It's all digital now.

A troop attending our summer camp has to have a laptop, and somebody who can navigate through whatever chaos they have chosen to do the merit badge records. It's all digital now.

Sounds like it will be the "perfect" Eagle COH for your son!! We're both members of that scouter dot com facebook group. Take a lot of pictures and post some to that!

While not in the official requirements, our council camp does things this way and has for decades. Swimming MB required before taking Lifesaving. Lifesaving MB required before taking: Canoeing, Rowing, Motor-boating, Small Boat Sailing, and Water Sports. I would say that the vast majority of the Scouts in our council earn these badges in the context of summer camp and so have to follow this progression of things.

Most of the Scouts in our area earn the boating badges at summer camp. Swimming and Lifesaving merit badges are mandatory prerequisites for any boating badges to be taken at camp. I always assumed having Swimming and Lifesaving was mandatory for participation in boating badges in any situation.

I just saw the recent headline about this on MSN dot com, and remembered this thread. I Amen to the prayer as well.

-KJ- Hopefully, you have seen from all the replies to your post that this is indeed a major "red-flag" situation. Most of the folks who have replied have been around Scouting a very long time and they are dead on target about what to do. Don't let this CM's likability factor play into it at all. This is an epic train wreck in the making.

Most of what I could say has been said, but thought I would chime in. I've been a leader in a Troop for almost 10 years and have seen many boys get the Eagle rank. Almost all were down to the wire. In SM conferences and BOR's every boy states that Eagle is a goal for them, but they are going to take their sweet time with it. We've had a couple that are exceptions, but they were clearly self-motivated and not being pressured by an adult. It doesn't take much for a Scout to get to Star or Life by 13/14 and then they will put the brakes on for a couple of years. The boys I've been associated with clearly want monthly campouts, summer camp, OA activities, POR's, High Adventure activities etc... They want to have a lot of fun and the rank advancement is just icing on the cake. As leaders, we do what we can to point them to what they need to get done for Eagle and they will eventually do it. EBOR's within a few weeks of 18th birthdays are not uncommon.

Stosh sez: "I'm thinking I'm finally breaking into the GOBN of the council though... after 20 years, I finally got District Award of Merit.... All my buddies have pulled off Silver Beaver many moons ago..... Why? They told me because I didn't do anything for the district or council and spent all my time working just with just the boys.... Yeah! Ain't it great!" Oh boy, I hear what you're saying there. Not to belittle the good folks who do a lot of work in district and council positions. Much of what they do is valuable. But in my corner of the world, a lot of prestige seems to be assigned to fellas who haven't been on a camp-out in decades, have only a flimsy connection with a unit of boys, and come across as merely trophy collectors looking for the next bead and bauble. Now this assessment isn't global, but there is enough of it out there to rub me the wrong way at times.