vol_scouter

Though I know almost all of the BSA upper management and many employees in the country, I know no one who fits your category 6. That said, I am not denying that such individuals may exist, from my experience, they are rare.

The BSA must file a five year business plan that is sound and provides a reasonable method to remain in business. This will require a level of liquidity that the BSA will not be able to have past July 2021 according to estimates from late spring early summer of 2020. The membership decrease was worse than had been predicted even that late into the year so I doubt that the forecast would have improved. So this is not rhetoric. From reading all that I can about this Chapter 11, it seems that most will not be well served for the BSA to be liquidated with the pension plan poised to consume most of the money. Since you have said that you are a claimant and have a professional role as an attorney, is it actually acceptable for you to request information from members of the ad hoc committee? That seems like asking to get into the opposing team's huddle.

When Ray Kroc owned McDonald's, he was notorious for visiting a store in some city and if the service was substandard, slow, or not polite or if the food was not good, he would jerk the franchise (all stores of that franchisee) and award them to someone else. It had nothing to do with anything but meeting McDonald's standards. That was in the 1970's so it may no longer be as relevant.

So your council is present ! It is human nature to put things into a context appealing to ourselves but we must all be cognizant of our desired audience and appeal to them where it is most likely to be seen. Our council will have a council wide flag retirement event this year that will appeal to our longstanding volunteers and donors. We will also have some nature trail/greenway events that will appeal to Scout age youth and their parents. We anticipate good local exposure for both. It is all about targeting the group that you want and delivering the message to that group.

The reason is the enormous cost and the difficulty to get national outlets to publish positive stories about the BSA. Even on the new girl Eagles, often the story includes some sort of aside to it taking too long or damaging the GSUSA. Prior to the Chapter 11 filing, there were many stories about Scouting that national outlets did not pick up. Paid PR has been too expensive with many other forces acting on the BSA. So the result has been less PR and fewer positive stories getting to the public. I agree with you, that the local boards and national boards want to use media and stories that would appeal to them rather than Scout age youth and their parents. Most councils have a social media presence but it is often underused.

CynicalScouter and others have made valid, cogent arguments why the BSA should not engage in a PR campaign until the bankruptcy case has concluded. I concur with them. There is another part to this idea and it will impact any PR campaign - the enormous cost of a cross media campaign. When I was a youth in Scouting, there were three televisions stations and no cable. Newspapers were better read and had more subscriptions (though there were more viable papers then). It was easier and proportionately less expensive to mount a truly nationwide campaign then. Now, with ABC, NBC, and CBS reaching far fewer people, the many cable channels and social media, even large wealthy corporations must be selective in their approach. Who would we wish the BSA to reach? It is active in social media and reaches a good deal of the youth nd young adults though likely it is the ones already in Scouting. That is an extremely important group but it will not likely result in a lot of new members. So whom would we pick to make appeals? Children and youth? Young adults? Parents of Scout age children? Perhaps, older people without Scout age children but who might be a donor? National thought leaders for support? The same message will not be effective in all of those groups but the messages cannot appear to conflict. The point is that this will be a very expensive endeavor. Coming out of bankruptcy, there will be many financial needs. How does the BSA balance them all? I predict that this will be a topic of criticism because we tend to see things through multiple kinds of glasses and the BSA cannot blanket all media with different messages. Someone above noted that national coverage is on abuse, lawsuits, trademark issues, etc. while local Scouting events garner much more positive press. Seem to me that rather than look to national, we should look to ourselves for the PR through our councils.

CynicalScouter, There is little that is positive with this Chapter 11 filing but your post is a relative positive. Whether the BSA could find a lending institution to bridge them with a loan is doubtful because they risk losing nearly all of their loan if the BSA is eventually liquidated. The BSA must submit a five business plan that shows that it is very likely to be viable. For example, the court might accept a modest membership increase after covid in a business plan but large growth would likely not be accepted because we have a long history of modest membership loss. The different reasons why claimants might be removed from the pool appears to be a large number, but the overlap in those groups is likely not negligible. Whatever that number ends up will be negotiated by insurers and plaintiffs representatives. As noted above, there is a finite amount of money that the BSA and local councils can provide and remain viable. My guess is that the plaintiffs attorneys will overwhelmingly want to take that amount now rather than force the BSA into liquidation and spend years going after the local councils. Things might be looking up just a little.

I am not an attorney but would feel that if the claimant's case is outside of the statute of limitations then no one would be compelled to pay.

This is helpful, thank you for posting. It could be argued that each of these groups should be removed from the calculations to determine the trust fund amount. However, it is likely that these groups overlap somewhat. Has anyone seen an estimate for the number that would be disallowed if all categories were to be excluded?

The point is that the people who did not wish to see a change are ardent in their view and cannot believe that the majority would disagree with them. So not matter what information was presented, there would be criticism. They cannot be satisfied with any results that did not support their view. This would seem to be true. I know Scouters and Scouts from all around the country and most of them are delighted with the BSA having girls in all programs, see the BSA as providing adequate information, and remain ardent in their support.

The results were summarized. Had the results been published, the criticisms would have been about other things. The people who did not agree with the results would find issues while those in favor would see the surveys for what they were - not the very best but nonetheless valid. The fact is the membership was overwhelmingly in favor of adding girls. Absolutely every subgroup that was surveyed was in favor of adding girls. Donors, volunteers, youth in Boy Scouts, youth in the OA, adults in the OA, etc. The results were far more positive than had been anticipated. If any group was excluded, it was done by the local council. As noted above, some councils distributed to all volunteers, some had selected groups, and some chose not to distribute it to anyone. The BSA feels that volunteers have a relationship with the councils so the BSA tries to work through the councils for such things as surveys rather than send directly to the councils. If my memory serves me, the Church of Latter Day Saints had decided that it was going to withdraw from the BSA and use its own program so if any LDS volunteers were excluded in some councils, that might be part of the reason. However, my memory might be off. Once again, some councils sent the survey to all volunteers.

The thought was that the acceptance would be near 50-50 and that it would require some time before there was consensus. The extensive surveys were consistent and overwhelmingly positive. The local councils were responsible to determine who received the surveys. Some sent the surveys to all volunteers while others only the Executive Committee or Executive Board while a few did not distribute them at all. However, all groups surveyed were very positive that it was a good idea. Even the boys in the OA where very positive. Though not the very best surveys that I have ever seen, they were valid. Most questions were 70% to 90% in favor of adding girls. Sorry that there were problems in your council and some others. The BSA was transparent in its process and the results were overwhelmingly positive. There were also people celebrating the the change just as there were some decrying it. If Scouting had never been invented and 'we' came up with the idea now, would you really exclude girls? I think that an honest evaluation is that it would be coed - not single gender.

The BSA was clear about the intentions and executed on that in retaining single gender programs for Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA. That is the requirements now just as when girls were first added to each program. The BSA was clear that the it was likely that girls would be added to the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts (renamed to Scouts BSA) but as single gender programs. It did not fib or try to mislead the GSUSA. There were local problems that were corrected when national was notified. The BSA was specific in its guidance to local councils to avoid the problems that the GSUSA have cited.

The BSA is a nonprofit corporation that does Scouting in the USA. The BSA and GSUSA have the sole rights to using Scouts, Scouting, etc. when it applies to a program for youth and children. The BSA also owns such things as Eagle Scout and the other ranks, the Order of the Arrow, etc. So a new program would need to develop new ranks, awards etc. Not a huge problem but the good will and reputation of the US Scouting program would be lost. There are certainly outfitters for the outdoors though it can be difficult to find gear for Webelos through the first couple of years of Scouts BSA size children and often more expensive. Once again, an issue but not a fatal flaw. The BSA has traditionally bought new gear for World Scout Jamborees (WSJ) such as tents that were given to National Scout Organizations (NSO) that struggle in third world countries. If there is no BSA equivalent, that will cease (will not happen for a while). The high adventure bases are a bargain for a high adventure trip to have food, housing (tents), logistics, etc. all arranged and not to be handled by the volunteers. It requires a large organization to manage such properties. The Appalachian Trail (AT) requires lots of logistical planning and only allows small groups. I do not know of a sailing rental that would accommodate a group of Scouts and allow them to actually crew the boat. Not saying that any of these things are impossible but it is not in the ability of most units. As a boy, my troop hiked part of the AT every year but it was only in a nearby portion and was only on a long weekend. We did long weekend canoe trips locally but the cost to go far from home was an impediment. Clearly, high adventure bases are still cost prohibitive for many Scouts and Scouters but they do allow the participants a good value and minimize the time to plan and execute the trip. We are a large nation and the strong leadership of the BSA means a high fidelity in the program across the country so that Scouts and Scouters can move and it is the same program. The loss of a strong central leadership to establish uniform standards will be a loss. I know that many do not like the BSA but whenever you interact with folks from around the country, it is gratifying that the program has high fidelity. All of this to say that there is tangible benefit to a BSA with supply division. Scouting will survive if it is eliminated (that I don't think is the likely outcome) but it will benefit from a BSA similar to the current one. The next several weeks will likely inform us as to how the future will look. The local councils will be affected as well - likely with a contribution to a claimants trust fund that could be painful to much worse. Let us all be Loyal to Scouting, Trustworthy with our comments, Kind to one another as we work through these difficult problems, Brave to honestly face the issues, and throughout it remain Cheerful.

Echoing others, cburkhardt needs to provide more information before heavy moderation would be appropriate. It seems to me that the posts in this long thread have all been out of concern for the BSA. To understand what is going to most likely happen when some details emerge and from that develop a strategy will mean that BSA supporters must ask hard questions. Those questions about the ramifications must be asked but the responses might be painful and demoralizing but they must be asked. It is not going to be a time to tell glowing stories that do not reflect the overall situation. The BSA has offered the National Service Center and all of supply in the $347 M. We could assume that a final settlement would have those things sold. It will be hard not to have supply for uniforms, badges, etc. If councils try to take that over, how is there uniformity? How will a merit badge not end up looking a little different between councils? Is there another way to do supply? Can a remaining BSA restart supply? How long would that require? These are not pleasant topics and will affect what happens at the unit level. However, these tings must be discussed. How will we as volunteers move forward? We need to know if there will likely be a replacement supply before speculation makes any sense (for that matter, need to know with certainty that supply will be sold). Could there be an organized effort to demoralize us - absolutely. However, I believe that the circumstances will be demoralizing in and of itself. People roughly smash any efforts to find ways forward can be addressed should they emerge. I would ask the moderators to consider a temporary need category, with much of the understanding of Issues and Politics, that is for Bankruptcy Impacts and Responses for this discussion. Hopefully, after a year or so, it could be deleted (archived). Just my 2¢.

Mrjeff, I think that your sentiments are just a little ahead of the situation. From what I see from comments from posters who appear to be attorneys and private conversations, the outcome from Chapter 11 seems to be that the national council survives though is smaller and certainly less wealthy. The less likely outcome would seem to be changing to a Chapter 7 and dissolving the BSA. Speculation is that some organization that will own the intellectual property, trademarks, etc will survive in either situation. There is considerable difference between a very small group owning the IP, etc and a smaller but still viable BSA. A very small group owning just the IP will put the future entirely in the hands of local councils and volunteers whereas a smaller BSA will still be able to serve as a means to retain an identity and maintain standards so that a youth may move and resume Scouting with the same requirements, ranks, etc. If the BSA survives, will it have high adventure bases? Will it have a supply division? One can ask many such questions and the answers will dictate the rebuilding that we will require. One way or the other, Scouting's future in the USA will depend on volunteers everywhere o continue to work with America's youth, execute the program, and maintain the standards. Hopefully, it will be with a national structure but one way or the other, we all will rebuild damaged local councils and the national council. Scouting will survive only with all of us working together. When it is clear the extent that we will need to rebuild Scouting in America, then the discussion will turn how to keep the parents and volunteers going into the wilds to build the next generations of citizens. Your discussion is much needed but just a little premature. When we get enough information, I will join you in discussing the coming needs.

As a caveat, I am not an attorney but am a professional in a field that if such misbehavior were to be identified, the offender would be removed from the profession. That said, one would think that if the above accusations are valid, then those attorneys would at the very least be disbarred and could have issues with knowingly submitting false claims with the court. However, not being an attorney, I know not what is likely to happen. One way or the other, much of the above represents a breach of appropriate behavior. Fortunately, these attorneys are far from being representative of the field of law. The attorneys whom I know are honorable and, though aggressive, follow the norms of their field.

And many nights and weekends to boot for a DE. Plus, little opportunity for advancement. Board members often see the talent in DE's and hire them into their own businesses.

So the TCC is asking for essentially the entire BSA to be placed into a trust. Can any of the attorneys comment on whether this is the usual procedure and that there is little expectation of success in all contentions or whether this is unusual and means that they believe that they have a high likelihood of success which would eliminate the BSA.

My condolences to her family. She will be missed by many Scouters.

Makes 2021 look better already! Congratulations to the two youth.

Most summer camps find that STEM MBs are among the most popular elective MBs and often more popular than Eagle required ones. Units can pursue the STEM Nova/Supernova awards. They are straightforward. Ideally, one can interject STEM into whatever they are doing. Adults do not and should not have all of the answers so the questions that they ask, they do not need to have an answer but stimulate the youth to seek an answer. So just ask questions about the world around us. While cooking, ask what we are doing. The answer would be chemistry. Cooking is breaking bonds to soften the food and to change the taste. Fire is chemistry. What happens in lightning strikes? Why is the sky blue? How does a tree or plant get water and nutrients to the top of the plant? How does that relate to the mechanism of a vacuum cleaner? Why is star gazing the same as a time machine? One can go on and on. Why are some plants colorful and others not? It can become a fun, friendly competition. How does mathematics relate to knots? Knots are part of the mathematical field of topology. What is a meniscus and why does it happen? These kind of exchanges can be done on the trail while resting, while waiting in line to do an activity, sitting around the campfire, or in the car on the way to or from an activity.

Then the volunteers need to work with their Executive Committee and then the Executive Board. You are right, David, that SE have more power than they can exert more influence than they actually have. The reason is that the nominating committee works with the SE who wants people who will be supportive - as would any of us. This is not nefarious but human nature. Also, council executive boards have a number of community leaders as well as people who are active Scouters - all have to be registered volunteers. The community leaders are only aware if an active Scouter makes them aware. David CO and Tahawk, My council has been blessed to have active Scouters on the Executive Committee and Executive Board to guide the council. We have had disagreements and things are sometimes bumpy but never as bad as poster on these forums. It could take some time and effort but have meetings with EC and EB members and have a dialogue. Would not recommend those actions during the BSA in Chapter 11 that will likely affect councils and the COVID crisis that has devastated membership in most councils and closed camps (an income source) and other activities (also income sources). The SE, staff, EC, and EB are very stressed and may not be as receptive as at other times. Wish you good fortune in effecting changes.

My council would never need for it to go that far. To date, all significant issues have been worked out without such drama since I have been involved at the council level (1994). If an issue ever got to that point, it would be quickly addressed. The SE's that we have had paid attention to the volunteers. Not everything turned out like the volunteers have wished but there have always been solid factual reasons why it did not.

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected. The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board. The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members. The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time. The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.