vizoere

OGE: Does the BSA ban on homosexuals extend to scouts or to just leaders? Alas, I don't have a straight answer for you, but just another opinion. I would hate to hear that it does extend to scouts. As some previously pointed out, being morally straight doesn't necessarily mean that one is free from all immoral actions/thoughts, but that the individual recognizes what they are doing/have done is wrong & struggles to make right. Even with this realization, can a leader with good conscience remove a boy from scouting because he impulsively lies? He thinks of these lies as 'little white lies', to embelish the truth, exagerate a story, or just make himself look better in front of his peers. He believes there is nothing wrong with it. The boy would be better served by working with him & attempting to help him understand the right & wrong of lieing. The same would apply to a boy who believes he his a homosexual. The ages of boys involved in scouting as we all know are an age of trying to identify one's self. Most boys at some time during this period have thoughts that could construed in a growing mind as homosexual. They need help sorting out what they think. Ideally, this role is fulfilled by the father. Unfortunately, these days with the overwhelming growth of single parent families, that isn't always possible. As mentioned in a few other threads, this is a topic that you should have the boy first ask his parents about, but we as male scout leaders are in a position that could help these boys when noone else can. I know some will argue that we shouldn't broach this topic for political reasons. I agree to a point. We should at least speak with the parent(s) of the boy (unless that would violate the boy's confidence in you) and ask them to talk to him. If no father is in the boy's life, ask if we can help guide him in a direction in line with the morals of scouting. If all of the above has been tried, and the boy still believes himself to be gay, then what should we do? Kick him out? Suggest that he join another program? Allow him to remain a member & ignore the fact that he is/believes himself to be, a homosexual? I don't really know. Other opinions?

P_Swigs, I was slightly offended at your second post on this thread, "Come on, people - lets not...". I chose not to reply because I respect the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine. I must object though to your latest post in response to Dedicated Dad. I may or may not agree with him, but there is no reason to demean him with that rant. Contrary to your post, this is precicely the place to have this discussion. --- Issues & Politics In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content. --- Please note the phrase, "Those not interested can skip this forum" Thanks for your understanding.

OGE said: --- To (insert group here), the (insert activity here) is a perversion... I think the term perversion is a judgement applied by an Observer about a situation/action that Observer cant personally comprehend. --- The way I understand what he is saying is, "What gives any one of us the right to judge that what someone does is morally straight or not?" Dedicated Dad said: --- If morality only exists "in the heart" or with your brief history of moral relativism, i.e. morality is individual and independent of others, then nothing can be truly moral or immoral. --- True, anyone can create a "religion" with whatever beliefs they like. As I remember from history class, many religions came about in this way. King Bob the 43rd decided that he didn't want to be married to his current wife anymore, but his religion didn't allow divorces. He creates a new religion based on the old one that allows divorces & decrees that all his subjects must "convert" to his new religion. This is one of the prices we must pay so that we can worship in the religion we believe is the true one. The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization. They, IMHO, have taken the rules common to most major religions & deemed this as the baseline for morality for use in the BSA. This seems to me the most fair way to handle the situation. It opens Scouting to the vast majority of boys out there, while still maintaining some semblence of a moral code. Unfortunately for some boys & potential leaders, this rules that homosexuality is wrong. Someone once said, "You can please all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time."

Just a personal opinion here, but my thought is no. The leadership positions in scouting I always thought were voluntary. The extra money gained in your recent fund raisers should be used exclusively for improving the boys' experience, be that, buying nice tents, upgrading an overnighter at a local campground to a nicer campground farther away, or just add some of it back into the boys' scouting account. Let them pay part of their summer camp fees, buy things at the camp store, replace a worn out uniform shirt, etc. I'm sure if you talked to the boys and their parents, they'd be pretty upset knowing that they worked their butts off selling popcorn or whatever & the money they raised would be going in someone's pocket. Again though, just my opinion. If someone has thoughts on why some of the money should go to the volunteers, I'm all ears.

Pretty cool, I like the background. Someone mentioned creating a site for your cubs. My step-son just started as a Wolf this year & as part of my contribution to the pack, I created & now maintain a web site for them here on scouter.com. It's nowhere near as fancy as this one, but if you care to take a look, http://packs.scouter.com/in/pack3313 Later

still getting the same message

The connection was refused when attempting to contact 63.173.123.213.

I find myself in disagreement with most of the posts on this thread. I do agree regarding the two unmarried leaders sleeping in the same tent. They should be given the choice, Follow the scouting guidelines or Choose not to attend the events where this issue arrises. I do not agree regarding the leader who is living unwed with his partner if he keeps the situation private. It sounds like he may not be though since one of the scouts knows about it. The reason I feel this way is because none of us are perfect models of morality. I personally measure morality by what is in the Bible. In the Bible, it says that living together out of wedlock is wrong. So by doing that, you have an imoral trait. It also says to treat your body as a temple. So someone who smokes or drinks could be considered to have an imoral trait. It says, "Thou shalt not lie." So again, a very large percentage of the population has this imoral trait. It says homosexuality is wrong. Another questionable trait. My point is that as long as the boys are not exposed to the trait in question, there's nothing wrong with the person being a leader. The person is not being a bad role model if he/she doesn't model the imoral trait. If they boys don't know, how does it hurt them. If they do find out in a fasion other than the person exhibiting the trait in front of the boys, they learn that their leader has a flaw, as does everyone. In one sentence, We can't (IMO) keep someone from becoming a leader due to an imoral trait because if we did, there would be no one left to lead. I know that many of you disagree with my opinion on this, and I respect that. This is not an attack on anyone, just my two cents.

Had a thought while reading these posts. Those of us whose packs/troops have web sites could put a link to the forums. That may attract more participation & other viewpoints. Jeremy