Vicki

"When is the line drawn between standing up for what is right and allowing a parent(s) to use their child as "bait for guilt" to have their way in shirking out of scouting responsibility to their son?" Sounds to me like adamsdwa has drawn his line - it's somewhere between a mom who asks for $$$ to pay bills while she's getting her hair cut and a single mom with four kids. Works for me - it's his line to draw. And the whole "keep her happy" line? If my beloved didn't disagree with me on a regular basis, we wouldn't still be married (30 years in). I have no time for anybody, male or female, who has that little respect for their partner that they think they can't disagree with them. Now, if y'all are just engaging in sexist claptrap again, keep on goin' - I'll be over to the side drinking my coffee:

Ed, I think the possibility that something is wrong is fairly obvious from KSscoutmom's first post, don't you? Let's see, "need help" in the title was my first clue:

A little bit late to the game - but just in case he hasn't had his conference yet, a couple of thoughts on physical reactions. While you're practicing the problematic questions, ask him to make sure he keeps breathing. No kidding. Especially nice, deep breaths. It feels funny when you first start doing it, but it works. The first thing we do when we start to get defensive is our breathing gets shallow - from that point on, the brain doesn't stay oxygenated, adrenaline starts pumping, and we don't have a prayer of staying in control. I also advise folks to try to put a breath in between the stimulus and the reaction - keeps you from saying something without thinking and has the added advantage of making you look really thoughtful (that one is really hard). Also, look for a physical cue that you're getting defensive/angry - for me, it's my elbows tingling. For someone else I know, it's their shoulders knotting up. Then do what it takes to relax - for me, it's leaning back in my chair and unobtrusively adjusting my arms. Leaning back has the advantage of stretching my diaphragm/lung combo which helps breathing:

Actually, Ed, there is a place for the SSN - it also says it's optional with the ominous caveat that medical treatment may be denied without it. No girdle, ASM. Not enough crunches either, but enough that I get to go if I want to. Lo, I must hurry after them, for I am their leader! Vicki

OK, to depart slightly from the fun and games of semantics slicing - someone mentioned awhile ago that they had problems tracking down a parent with the insurance card (even though the info was on the form). For years now, I've copied the front and back of our insurance cards onto the back of the form with big red letters on the front that say "Please see over." And no, I don't give my SSN to anybody who can't prove they have a valid reason for asking - and the BSA medical form doesn't qualify. Vicki

Eagle Boards of Review are held on the first monday, second Tuesday, third Wednesday and fourth Thursday of every month in my district. It's possible, on a per case basis, to schedule one outside of those days, but you need a pretty darn good reason. Seems reasonable to me, we have some pretty busy people who volunteer their time for this. Not to mention the fact that it rotates days of the week. EBORs are done at the district level, not troop. I should mention that our district is as big or bigger than some councils. Not bragging, there can be a significant downside to large size, just providing a sense of scale in terms of the ability to be completely accommodating. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

To be honest, I don't think I'd worry about it. If I had it, I'd wear it (in the right spot on my uniform, o'course:

Rooster, the word is not tailored to a specific generation. But, if we don't understand the context in which it was written and the people who wrote it we are not going to understand it for our generation. I think we've eaten up enough of this thread. If you would like to continue this conversation we can do it privately, but I think I've reached an adequate understanding. BTW, in terms of the original thread, I think whether or not one decides to participate in a specific Christian community is up to the individual and their family. Unfortunately, this individual and his family have attained national standing so their "doings" become our business, even when it isn't our business. Vicki (edited for typo) (This message has been edited by Vicki)

Rooster, I believe you and I would agree that a Christian embraces the whole package - Jesus as lover of humankind and Jesus as savior. Luke 12:8-12 are considered to be the parallel verses to those in Matthew. In those verses the language is less combative yet has the same message. Matthew, in general, tended to be more combative than Luke - possibly reflecting the reality of his time and place in the biblical narrative. You will probably disagree violently with me (although I may be making an unwarranted assumption) but I don't believe that Matthew was necessarily writing his gospel prior to about 70AD when the Romans savagely put down a Jewish revolt and tore down the temple. Matthew was writing for/preaching to a community that was fighting for its life with the Romans along with elements of the Jewish community. Vicki

Rooster, simply bringing Jesus' teachings into our century. In his day it was lepers and Samaritans. Well, those folks are safely back in 30AD aren't they? So let's talk about today's folks. Interesting exercise, isn't it? Not impugning you at all, by the way, I didn't hear you saying anything racist or bigoted, simply bringing a different interpretation into play. So no need for defenses on my account. Have others taken your literalism to be racist or bigoted? You have no idea what my politics are, I think you'd probably be surprised. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Yes, Rooster, Jesus' radical notion of loving thy neighbor as yourself, be that neighbor black or yellow, Republican or Democrat, was a sword that cleaved families asunder. The notion that the outcasts of society deserved care too cleaved communities asunder. Vicki

Rooster, you are completely and utterly convinced of your "rightness." That's fine, I've met several people like you. Fortunately extremists, by definition, will always be in the minority and they will be comfortable there because feeling embattled is part of how they define themselves. But I, personally, feel I will potentially bring more people to faith through Luke 6:27ff than I ever will by flinging Romans 1 in folks' faces. Vicki

>What is both sad and frightening to me is that Christians are being labeled as extremists. By saying that there are certain things that are wrong, Christians are being reviled.> There are extremists on either end of the Christian spectrum that need to be spoken against, lest non-Christians think we've all gone totally nuts. Because there's that huge mass of us in the middle who, for the most part, try to live our faith as best we can, look at those on both ends and shake our heads. I try to live by, "witness always, use words when necessary." Pretty much precludes judging anybody else - seriously not my job. The following is not an attempt to create parity between the two situations, just an observation. I think that may be part of what's gone wrong in the Islamic world - the folks in the middle haven't spoken out against their extremists. Of course, I realize that's slightly simplistic given the volatility of their situation (too complex to go into here). But if that had happened back in the 50's and 60's, would we be in our current situation? If the Allies had known what the heck they were doing when they partitioned that part of the world? It's an interesting question. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Just shows Dobson has no clue as to how the BSA operates - #1, SMs are selected, not hired, and individual chartered groups will select whom they please (#9 Circuit's potential unconstitutional dictates notwithstanding) and #2, YP dictates who sleeps with whom and that policy is securely consistent with various insurance/state guidelines around the nation. Yes, I do think Dobson is fear mongering. Not to mention it does McCain no favors when people like Dobson start spouting extremist language any more than it did Obama a favor when that visiting minister spouted vitriol at Trinity. Preserve me from extremists of all stripes. Vicki (typo)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Another aspect of "truth to power" - liberation theology, as in God having a preference for the marginalized, poor, and oppressed and our responsibility as Christians to speak that truth no matter what the consequences. The consequences for it have been lynchings, police actions, bombings, etc., in the south when blacks and associated whites spoke "truth to power." I think (especially given his age) this is probably Colin Powell's context for the remark. Vicki

Gunny, the one hanging in my garage right now is mine. And, yes, true to your reminder, normally it's the tent I slept in and son #2's (unless a tentmate takes it home) - which he hangs himself:

The garage works out much better (our basement is finished) - we have a box beam that we put in to support a waterbed. Perfect place to drive nails to hang tents to dry:

Interesting. Only reason I can think of for not putting them in the dishwasher would be if the dirt had small/medium pieces of grit and rocks. That could be bad for the really lame disposal-type mechanism in the drain of our dishwasher. Of course, living where I do, just TRY to find dirt without small/medium pieces of grit... Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I don't know how big your district is, but there's no rule that says you have to get trained in your district. It's nice if you can train in your district, just from the perspective of getting to know local folks. You might consider checking out the possibilities. Vicki

I don't know if you would call the way we set things up sophistry or not, but at our camporees (spring and fall), there is a Webelos side and a Boy Scout side. Separate activities, separate camping areas and campfires. The troop I have been associated with invites the Webelos over for lunch and for cobbler after the campfire. Nice, controlled, situation. The Webelos have several adults (Cubmaster, Den Leaders, a couple of parents) but no 1:1 ratio is required. Works out really well as they (and the parents who attend) get to camp and get exposed to how Boy Scouts do things without getting exposed to some of the ways some Boy Scouts do things (if you get my drift). We leader types also get an opportunity to size up (and recruit) the Webelos parents. And, of course, they get a chance to check us out. Vicki

Gotta tell ya - first thing I do when I come into a new leadership/managerial situation is triage. Figure out what has to change right now, what can be left alone for a bit, and what is being done that may not be done my way, but is getting done well enough as it is. It's kind of what I do - two different companies and two churches over the last twenty-odd years. A little more difficult than coming in and throwing my weight around, but ruffles fewer feathers - especially volunteer feathers. Still establishes authority - cooperative as opposed to adversarial. Lets people know you'll listen to them, too. There's usually a couple of different ways to get to the same goal. Hmm, starts sounding like team-building. In this situation, it sounds like you need more of a committee. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

>So what everyone is saying is that because this guy basically broke a contract that my son should suck it up and use it as a learning experience. I'm sure if this was a non-Eagle situation and it was your business or job the answers would be different. > Hmmm, no, I think my answer would be exactly the same in either situation. For $225 I am not going to get a lawyer involved, especially if the contract is verbal (old saw: verbal contracts are worth the paper they're printed on). Even if the friend is willing to do it, I think it's the wrong lesson. If a vendor has hung up on me twice, I'm done. This isn't about "winning", it's about getting the job/project done. Now, it is possible that the vendor is hanging up on your son because he doesn't want to deal with "a kid." I'm going to buck the trend here and suggest that I would talk to Eagle candidate, ask if he thinks that's the situation and, if so, offer to call the individual myself - as SM(?), to explain the importance of commitments and the civic lessons learned by Eagle participants on their road to adulthood. In the real world, situations get escalated all the time. But if Eagle candidate says no, then no is the answer. And if you can't do it without smoke blowing out of your ears over the rude way this jerk has treated your son, then I'd just let it go. But I think the suggestions to revisit the size of the pit, etc., are the better route. Vicki

>Now, GW and others have noted correctly that skin color, hair, etc. are inherited and are thus biological. This is true, of course, but so are many, many other attributes which are not as obvious to the naked eye. Blood type is a good example. These attributes are just as important to human biology but are not visually obvious and so are not included by us when we mentally group people who are alike and different. > Race is a social construct, albeit a most powerful one. I would argue that blood type is an attribute that is more important than any cosmetic attribute - the wrong blood type transfused can be a death sentence. Then you throw in RH factor in the developing embryo and you get disaster. However, we do seem to be genetically disposed to emphasizing difference rather than similarity. I don't remember the name of the study, but back in the day there was a study that determined that a population of "normal" monkeys would always identify and ostracize (to the point of physically harming) an albino monkey. Some of us try harder than others to rise above this sort of behavior but, from an evolutionary point of view, it did protect family/tribal interests. Such a deeply ingrained behavior will take time to get past. Vicki

At the risk of getting told that "my council doesn't do it right" - again - (grin) - it sounds like the elements of this training program are scattered throughout our staff development days. We have seven SD get-togethers for Wood Badge staff (most were Sat/Sun) and several evenings and a couple of weekends for NYLT staff. I specifically remember everything scouter.claude mentioned. Vicki

Sctdad wrote, "I would be going except I have another scouting event on that day." Doncha hate it when your scouting interferes with your scouting?: