Vicki

acco40 wrote >and one that simply has the "essentials" - council strip, unit number, position patch, etc. I would wear that one to my son's Eagle COH> Dug, I think acco40 was referring to wearing his plainest shirt as opposed to the Panamanian general shirt. Also, while isvirtual doesn't specifically say so, I guess my answer was based on the assumption that he belonged to the same troop. Under what scenario would he not? I know assumptions can be dangerous but I guess I thought that one was relatively safe... Vicki

I agree with others here - it's your son's moment, ask him. Either way would be appropriate. Personally, I would think the uniform would be more appropriate since it is a scout function but the fact that's it's HIS day would make me ask him. When my son gets his Eagle, I hope he wants me in uniform, but I'll be mom whether I'm in or out...as I type this, though, I'm not sure the question will arise unless I bring it up. We've had three different Eagles since I started serving this troop - all three had a father Scouter (SM, CC and ASM). All three fathers wore their uniform. So the other question is - what does your troop do? Vicki

Dug's original post >Hello to all. My name is Dug and I am an Eagle scout and assistant scoutmaster of my troop in NJ. My troop is vastly different then most i have encountered, and from the responses ive recieved on other scouting message boards, very controversal and even threatening, but i see this as a chance to discuss, debate and learn. > But what I find most interesting is that every time someone asks a question, your reply clarifies the point and I haven't heard anything truly controversial or frightening yet. Nor are you "vastly" different from everyone else. Still within the broad norms of the BSA. Now the troop in another thread that defecates and urinates all over the woods (see "no women allowed, is this normal?") - THAT troop is vastly different... No biggie, just an observation. Welcome to normal, Dug. Vicki

>Many times the older scouts may actually teach merit badges to the troop and all the counselor does is watch and sign the cards.> Hmmm, I've just been reading this thread with no intention of participating since I've gathered women don't have any kind of leadership role in your troop. But this caught my eye and compelled a response. Do you invite counselors in for this "observation"? Or do you have a counselor for every merit badge in your troop? Do you teach merit badges during troop meetings as a regular thing or do you set up a MB "university" at times during the year? As a MB counselor for three very different MBs (Personal Mgmt, Journalism and Cooking - OK, my life path has been kinda different:

nldscout, thanks. Packsaddle, drunks are a whole 'nother issue that crosses age boundaries (although judgement in handling alcohol, statistically, is largely a youth problem). I thought you were talking about the studies that have been published recently on cognitive abilities which indicate that the ability to make good judgements isn't fully present in humans generally until we're about 25. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but again statistically, that seems to make sense. On a personal level, it was on my 25th birthday that I realized that life might be a more long-term thing than I had thought. Vicki

nldscout, thank you for the clarification. I will say our council is vague as to what constitutes an area event. As a matter of troop policy we don't allow 16 year olds to drive, period. Packsaddle, I've been following those studies you're talking about - they make a lot of sense. I hope it leads to some much needed reform in this area. Unfortunately, many parents are lobbying against any change. I can't speak to their motivation(s) but I think it can only be short-sighted at best. Vicki

Barry wrote "I am a firm believer that a boy needs a male role model to learn the behaviors of a man. That also means the boy should learn how a man should behave around women. But my personal experience is moms are more often than not more concerned and protective of their sons role models than the dads. Sometimes the moms are wrong too. " Agreed! Although being wrong is a non-gender sorta thing:

Sounds like you're on your way with the right attitude (and your son too)! Glad the other mom figured out the car thing on her own. Sounds like she's on the right track too. It's so gratifying to watch them succeed on their own. Welcome to the campfire. Vicki

What she said!:

ps56k, I understand your frustration with bureaucracy (been there, done that). But in a long-ago time I was on a swim team and we practiced virtually every day - as opposed to spitting into the wind trying to move the bureaucracy, can a member of leadership go watch about 15 minutes of a practice? Coach probably wouldn't mind letting him float for a few seconds... Vicki

Kristi, we may disagree on method but I'm with you on everything else. My approach is to go, camp, sit at the campfire and have a good time. I'm not the shouting type...but I've backpacked the Rockies, Sierra Madres, the Appalachians and canoed in between, so I've earned my spot on that log. In a non-confrontational way, unless somebody tells me to my face to get to the back of the bus. I'm afraid that dog won't hunt. I'm so glad my son's troop is welcoming of female leadership, I would have a hard time trying to figure out if my problem was my ego and if what I was doing was in my son's best interest. Vicki

jd, maybe Cajun and I can stroll over to his side of the fire and say "hi"... If their idea of a woman is a girlfriend "showing up" then they don't know many female Scouters:

Reflecting on your e-mail, one thought did occur to me. Male and female scouters are welcome on campouts but anyone, male or female, would have a difficult time camping with our troop if they thought it was appropriate to sleep in their vehicle. Scouters have been known to bring a cot and set it up in the tent, but that would be the extent of any adult favoritism. Also, the folks that camp have all either been to training and are registered adults or are in the process of being trained. So depending on the level of training in your troop, that could be another level of "prejudice" on top of the sexist claptrap. Not to discourage you, just throwing it out there. Keep in mind, Lord Baden-Powell encouraged mothers to get involved - heard that from our SM last week who was listening to one of BP's tapes. Plan on borrowing that when he's done... Vicki (getting my beads tomorrow. I do love this Scouting stuff! credit to Barry for that comment.)

Just establish that if there's a bowling pin in the latrine doorway (or a rope across it) - there's a woman in there! Take your Lysol wipes. Have a good time! Our troop has no issue with female scouters - there are three of us who camp regularly out of nine camping adults. Without us, there wouldn't always be enough drivers... Vicki

Just to clarify - there is adhesive that comes in a can and is totally worthless (IMO, obviously). Maybe I wasn't doing it right:

Actually, nldscout, 16 year old youth members can drive under these conditions (as excerpted from the G2SS). Venturers are treated no differently than any other BSA participant. Vicki Automobiles General guidelines are as follows: An adult leader (at least 21 years of age) must be in charge and accompany the group. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) No record of accidents or moving violations Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders

Ours is a Mr./Mrs. kinda troop. I'm Mrs. H to most of the scouts, which I take as a compliment (having graduated from the full-blown Mrs. Hxxxx). I'm also Aunt Vicki to my two nephews (our SPL and his brother the first-year) and Mom to my son (soon-to-be Life scout). Amusing story - my sister is a certified First-Aid instructor and we do a refresher course during two or three troop meetings in January. I'm Treasurer and Personal Management MB counselor. My fin'l report and pep talk to the troop coincided with her refresher course during a meeting this year. I overheard my burly nephew SPL confiding to the SM how lame it felt that his mom and his aunt were running the meeting:

My 2 cents here - our Eagle Boards are done at the district level, not troop. Our scouts are coached and groomed for them and very happy when it's over. That said, my 12 year old got "the bug" somewhere between First Class and Star. He's now finished the requirements for Life except for six months of service - two weeks to go. He'll be 13 in May. He already has two names to talk to as "source people" for Eagle projects. I've convinced him that he needs to wait until after the Life to Eagle seminar at the April RT before he goes too far with that. Our troop also has two or three scouts about to age out who are sweating their projects, so he'll be in line behind them. Will he make Eagle by 14 or 15? Don't know. He hates to write and plan, so I don't know what's going to happen. On the other hand, he was very thorough on the Cit/Community merit badge and surprised the heck out of me, BTW. Is he mature enough to appreciate it if he does? I don't think so but then if he makes it, doesn't that prove the point? And if he doesn't appreciate it until he's 25, isn't that OK too? Will he have had a lot of help along the way? Absolutely, but the attainment of it will be all his. I'm not really pushing to try to find out why he decided he wants it - maybe you've noticed 12 year olds aren't that articulate (at least not mine)? Sidebar - On the surface, you might find red flags of Eagle Mill but that's truly not the case. We don't do merit badges during meetings - in fact our meeting last night was bootbottle in the parking lot (we'd spent the last several meetings getting ready to host the district Klondike, a 50th anniversary and COH, along with a cabin campout - all of which came off very well, thank you). Back to the point of this ramble - I guess I'm saying that all these boys are wonderfully different and it took me a while to appreciate that (and I mean that in the fullest sense of the word "appreciate"). Fortunately, BP and others were there long before me to set specific guidelines like "do not add to nor detract from the requirements". The program is - what gets done with it is part of the chaotic discipline that I see as the BSA (and enjoy quite a bit). Vicki

Acco, I agree with you. My whole point in posting my observation was that even in the parochial school my boys attend Scouts (or any other group) are not allowed to recruit during school hours. They have no restraints regarding the propriety of a Creator-based organization recruiting, in fact quite the opposite. Public schools would, to my mind, need to exercise even more discretion. Vicki

Just a "for what it's worth" observation - my boys go to a Lutheran school and belong to a pack/troop chartered to a Lutheran church. Pack/troop representatives are only allowed to make presentations during School Night for Scouting. A poster is put up at the Scout bulletin board and, if you're interested in Scouting, you show up. No coercion, no recruiting and definitely not during school hours. Vicki

You're right - my husband and I got caught in a freak mountain storm (oxymoron, I know) canoeing on Lake Tahoe. I've also had to swim my way out of a rip tide off the SoCal coast. Most people just don't understand the power they're dealing with. I wouldn't have gone out with a warning in effect. As one of three BSA certified lifeguards in our troop I wouldn't have allowed the group to go, either, no matter how much they didn't like me for it. I'm not one to throw my weight around, but that's exactly the kind of situation that's too scary to contemplate given the possible consequences. I feel so sorry for those families. Vicki

Eagledad, I wasn't blaming anybody, especially not the SM. Interesting how some lines hit some people's sensibilities and other lines push other buttons. Anyway, if it was anybody's responsibility, it was mine. I'm his mom, I know him better than the SM (again, not saying the SM should - he has 35 other boys to worry about and he doesn't live with him). I don't even really regret sending him last summer - I just think he'd get more out of it now that he's older. I'm sure he'd enjoy this program more. Vicki

I was asked to serve as an ASM for NYLT this summer - we had our orientation meeting about a week ago and it sounds really exciting! Very much based on the new Wood Badge. There are videotaped segments on DVD from astronauts, race car drivers, Steve Fossett and others that are very inspirational along with powerpoint-type slides. This allows the TGs a lot of leeway to prepare their own presentation yet stay within the parameters of the program. There are games and challenges that go along with the theme of the day. They've also added GPS training as a team-building exercise with a practical aspect to it. Obviously that's the very high-level view but I'm glad to see it's been updated. That said, our council allows 12 year olds to attend. My son went last summer at twelve and was in no way mature enough for it but his SM recommended he go, so he went. Had I known then what I know now, I would have suggested he wait until this summer. Vicki

I agree with Hunt - if the SM has signed off and this is just coming up now at the Scout's BOR then to make the Scout do any kind of "makeup work" is exceeding the requirements. The most you can do is do some real coaching as he completes his Eagle requirements. Now, all the suggestions for improving the program so that this isn't a future issue are great and well worth the effort. We're having discussions now in our troop as to how to make PORs more meaningful... Vicki

Kristi, it sounds like you have a plan - but you say you're going to ask the old CM to put the new treasurer on the account. Please don't tell me you would actually put new money into that account as long as the old CM is still a signer on it.... Vicki