Vicki

Two thoughts based on what I've seen my sons' school do when parents want to go on field trips. Our troop really doesn't have a problem with too many parents showing up so we haven't had to come up with a solution. 1) The parents who show up for service projects are given first shot at camping trips. 2) Have a list of parents who want to go on trips. Start at the top and work your way down with however many can go on a specific trip. If a parents name comes up and he/she can't go, they are at the top of the list for the next trip. If the parent can't go more than (pick a number) times in a row, they go to the bottom of the list. Some combination of 1 and 2. Not too hard to administer once you get it rolling and fair. Vicki

Thanks to the scouter who sent me the URL for the legal info. Whether I agree or disagree, which doesn't matter, it does seem cut-and-dried as far as Mom is concerned, unless she's willing to posit the existence of a God (which it is possible for an agnostic to do). There is wiggle room for the scout, in my view, depending on what Dad actually believes, how influential Mom has been (sounds like she's been very influential), what son thinks he believes (at 10!) and what the family actually does. I'll stop now. Good luck Sunday (how ironic that this conference is happening on a day of religious observance for many:

Actually, nwscouter, there's more wiggle room than you might think. The spectrum of "agnostic" includes atheistic agnostics at one end and theistic agnostics at the other end (see below). I do not have access to the exact wording of the BSA legal policy (tried Googling it and none of the links gave me anything but hysteria). As a former agnostic, I would have been comfortable, from an ethical perspective, signing the registration form - I've always believed in God but am unable to prove his/her/its existence. I have since moved into the theist arena and worship as a Christian (a Lutheran pastor having told me that honest seekers are welcome in the LCMS). I would also be very uncomfortable excluding this Scout - I think you're absolutely right to pursue this as exhaustively as possible. Anyway, all that aside, I thought you might be interested in the following (especially the last part) and in knowing that the term "agnosticism" wasn't even coined until relatively recently. As with many terms related to religion, it depends on where you look for your definition: "Gordon Stein wrote in his essay The Meaning of Atheism and Agnosticism: Obviously, if theism is a belief in a God and atheism is a lack of a belief in a God, no third position or middle ground is possible. A person can either believe or not believe in a God. Therefore, our previous definition of atheism has made an impossibility out of the common usage of agnosticism to mean neither affirming nor denying a belief in God. Actually, this is no great loss, because the dictionary definition of agnostic is still again different from Huxleys definition. The literal meaning of agnostic is one who holds that some aspect of reality is unknowable. Therefore, an agnostic is not simply someone who suspends judgment on an issue, but rather one who suspends judgment because he feels that the subject is unknowable and therefore no judgment can be made. It is possible, therefore, for someone not to believe in a God (as Huxley did not) and yet still suspend judgment (ie, be an agnostic) about whether it is possible to obtain knowledge of a God. Such a person would be an atheistic agnostic. It is also possible to believe in the existence of a force behind the universe, but to hold (as did Herbert Spencer) that any knowledge of that force was unobtainable. Such a person would be a theistic agnostic." Vicki

Google turned up diddly for bobwhites in the Midwest. I know, how disappointing:

Read that you'd made a decision, but thought I'd throw this out there for those who come after - we found a conservation effort related to the Northern Bob White and made a donation. Gave him a certificate with a picture of a bobwhite and our patrol flag, we all signed it, bought a relatively inexpensive frame. This may have been going over the top, but one of our members also found a really neat trinket box with a bear on the top so we gave him that too. He and his wife are both very serious about conservation (as are so many Scouters) - he was touched. Vicki

nutz, obviously done differently council to council (probably based on state regs). Our meds are kept at our campsite unless they need refrigeration. For JLTC, I met with the ASM when I dropped my son off and passed along the necessary info at that time. Even so, the answer remains the same - the troop person on campsite should be the most knowledgeable person concerning an individual scout's condition and should get that info from the parents. Even if meds are involved, the person dispensing doesn't know that scout from any other kid his age. Vicki

nutz, I would really hate to saddle a Scouter with the total range of possibilities inherent in an ADD/ADHD diagnosis. Individual followup with the parent as to the specifics of their son's issues will be a lot more valuable to the leader. For instance, when I discuss my son's med form (which would be filled out exactly as you describe) I let them know the accommodations that need to be made in a group setting - there aren't many and for confidentiality reasons I'm not going into them here. My son may read this someday! The only time it was really important was when he attended JLTC. Our troop has another scout with issues similar to my son's but slightly different and yet another scout with Asperger's Syndrome along with ADHD and medications. All by way of saying - the parents are your best source of information. You can Google ADD/ADHD to get the background and it might be helpful. Vicki

>although, as somebody else has already pointed out, there is a wealth of information in that book.> Barry, this is the rest of the sentence that started with the First Class comment. As you said, from a teacher's point of view, that book is invaluable. The first time my oldest's got rain-soaked, we dried it out and I bought a cover for it. Basically, I was trying to give the folks who tell the scouts they don't have to bring the book the benefit of the doubt. I always have my copy with me and encourage my son to have his with him. Vicki

Well, I can see not taking your handbook once you've reached First Class although, as somebody else has already pointed out, there is a wealth of information in that book. But we do so much advancement with the pre-First Class scouts on campouts that I guarantee some requirement completion would go unrecorded if they didn't have their books with them. Not to mention the intro to responsibility involved in keeping track of the darn thing. I also tend to think that, while Troopmaster is great, the scout's book, signed off as required, is the primary record. That book is what the scout needs to bring to his Scoutmaster conference and BOR, not a printout from the advancement chair. It's all about individual responsibility. Vicki

OGE, I have the greatest respect for what you guys do and I speak from experience, having been one of two moderators on a 1200 member board on international adoption. Since this topic has gone public, at the risk of stepping out of line here, I would add that when the flames start between, for example, BW, Backpacker and/or Ed (or other combinations) it puts a definite chill on at least that topic if not the board in general. Constructive discussion stops when the sniping starts and there are no innocents. Vicki

A reflection on the power of expectations - once you buy the shirt, the expectation in our troop is that you will at least attend training specific to your position (I am a committee member - Treasurer). If you're a camping type (which I am) the expectation is that as long as you're attending committee training, well, you might as well do the whole thing. Oh, and as long as you've gone this far, well why not Wood Badge? Of course, you had the full uniform long ago. It's a slippery slope and once you're on it, just think of yourself as a fish on a hook. I got asked to be an ASM at NYLT this summer (well, you did Wood Badge, I know you're from a boy-run troop and I saw you at summer camp) - what the heck, I get enough vacation to cover it... Vicki (I used to be a Bear)

OK, as long as we're getting personal here:

Lynda, for a thicker gravy, slightly richer taste with less likelihood of clumping use Bisquick. I don't quite like my gravy as thick as wallpaper paste, but close! Also, if you use regular milk (just in case you haven't made gravy before) get it out of the cooler and let it warm up a bit before you use it - that will also help reduce clumps. Vicki

Beastie's Mom, I think Mike F hit it on the head earlier in this thread (ah, poetry:

Yep, the BSA method in action and at its finest. Probably the hardest thing for a parent to understand - the parent's route for communication is through the committee and/or the SM. Then leave it up to the SM's best judgment, that's why we pay him the big bucks:

High praise from BW! (No sarcasm here, BW, you have an unrivaled grasp of the intricacies of the BSA documentation and have willingly provided it on many occasions to clarify issues.) Vicki

Yeah, what anarchist said! We had one patrol do steaks and potatoes over their backpacking stoves (I think they cheated a little bit and pre-baked their potatoes) for dinner. We did a chicken and noodle casserole along with a beef something (memory fades) that was really good. Biscuits on the side but baked on-site. We needed something fast because we were still putting our patrol presentation together:

Thanks for all the input, folks! We didn't have a powerpoint presentation but we did have a slideshow on a laptop showing a CD of pictures taken by various people during the course. Brought other knick-knacks (cup, sit-upon, song book, etc.) to fill the table. Our Troop 1 Scoutmaster and Troop Guide handled the ceremony and my sister (also a Bear from a few years back) assisted with placing the beads, woggle and kerchief. I said a few words when called upon, we did our favorite patrol shout and a bear rub and then handshakes and hugs all 'round. It took the place of most of a regular troop meeting. While we were setting up indoors, the scouts did a firebuilding exercise out-of-doors so we did get the smell of woodsmoke! Then a crackerbarrel - I actually made a jelly-roll cake, borrowed my nephew's small axe and had the WB emblem! Glad it worked:

Congratulations! What a wonderful setting (said slightly wistfully). I went to another beading some years ago that was on a lakefront at sunset, with an entire patrol who had waited to get their beads together. Very moving to have more than one participant for some reason. That said, I received my beads last Thursday and also elected not to do it at an RT. I had mine on a regular troop night - we had a short session on firebuilding (at least it smelled like woodsmoke:

Gotcha, EagleInKY - agreed on all points, up to and including our jointly held pet peeve. Thanks for the clarification. Vicki

EagleinKY wrote >Mom said "Oh, I'm buying the MB books for the badges he was going to take at camp. I'm hoping we can work on them and he can complete them by summer".> Was the implication here that she thought she could sign off on the scout's cards? Or is it more along the lines of trying to get, for example, Camping on your own? Or that he should be doing MBs with another Scout? If so, then I understand your comment. But if it wasn't, then what's wrong with her buying the books? Whenever my son signs up for a MB, we find a MB counselor, he calls and sets up the initial appointment and I go buy the book and we print the sheets from meritbadge.com. My son doesn't read very well (reading disability) so we very often end up reading through at least parts of it together. Then we either discuss or he writes, depending on the requirement. If he is doing it with another Scout (the usual case) the other Scout usually "picks up" faster than my son and, without preparation, it's embarrassing for my son and frustrating for both. No one I've talked to has had a problem with this approach (and I have asked - wanted to get guidelines). He's doing the work, just like schoolwork, I'm just a coach. After he earns the badge, if the requirements haven't changed, the book goes into the troop library. Vicki

Welcome back to the fray, BW! Vicki

My understanding is that you won't find the BSA prohibiting dad/mom from being a MB counselor for their son. That said, our troop does have a policy prohibiting it. I'm working with my son on Personal Mgmt at the moment but he will go over all the verbal/written work and get his card signed off by a different counselor (as I did with this counselor's son). I do think though, that as the only Cooking MB counselor, if we decide to take a group through that badge, I will be allowed to sign off on my son's card. But I'm not sure - the situation hasn't arisen yet. It will definitely be a Committee decision if it does come up. We take that policy very seriously. Vicki

My understanding is that you won't find the BSA prohibiting dad/mom from being a MB counselor for their son. That said, our troop does have a policy prohibiting it. I'm working with my son on Personal Mgmt at the moment but he will go over all the verbal/written work and get his card signed off by a different counselor (as I did with this counselor's son). I do think though, that as the only Cooking MB counselor, if we decide to take a group through that badge, I will be allowed to sign off on my son's card. But I'm not sure - the situation hasn't arisen yet. It will definitely be a Committee decision if it does come up. We take that policy very seriously. Vicki

and a good ol' bear too. Glad it worked out! Congratulations to your son on his Eagle... my son and I will be at the Life to Eagle seminar during April's RT. I can only imagine the pride you feel at this moment. Vicki