Vicki

John, wonderful post! As one still on her faith journey aka an honest seeker, I enjoyed reading it. Realized after I posted that I failed to properly attribute the quotes and statements. Most of that e-mail was from SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg (who interviewed many of Lincoln's associates). Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS, CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4 volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson). I did some of the writing and verified the quotes. Vicki

Don't shoot the messenger, but, Ummm, need to correct one thing said here - our nation is not founded on the Bible, nor were our Founding Fathers necessarily Christian, deists yes, - as quotes from some of them prove (Paine, Madison, Jefferson and Adams). I've deleted the more extreme statements but they are easily found: Thomas Jefferson: I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. John Adams: Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days? Also Adams: The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. Here's Thomas Paine: I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible). It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible. Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance. Finally let's hear from James Madison: What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

and the BSA version of the L'Acadmie franaise will have just as much luck as they have, I predict. Viva la change! Vicki

Blade, I, too, misunderstood your post however unlike BW, choose not to reply to obvious, intentional rudeness unless compelled. Vicki

BW, the essence of an agnostic is that he or she maintains that the existence of a higher power cannot be proven. This does not preclude belief/faith, as I have posted in the Atheist Leader thread. There are two kinds of agnostics - atheistic agnostics and theistic agnostics. The latter are the ones to which I refer. Vicki

No argument that the preparation is the hardest part...the point of discussion is that the aftermath can be devastating. V

P_S, I find great comfort in the general ledger - in fact, I've often thought that if I ever got a personalized license plate it would read 0=0. To respond to something you wrote: "We have a dual signature account, but the reality of it is, the treasurer usually asks one of the other signers to sign a few checks each time we meet to avoid logistical problems." My biggest issue here would be the possibility of losing one or more of those checks. The bank will clear anything and the fact that there is one valid signature will raise a question in their minds as to whether or not to make reparation. Also, realistically, if you're going to subvert the process why have that restriction in the first place? My feeling is that there's no point in having a process just to look good - it's supposed to fulfill a purpose. Vicki

eisely, in the spirit of good fun - on a corporate level, an IRS audit is just like a colonoscopy. You scour all your returns, all your documentation, make sure everything is in order and FIND the stuff that isn't in order and either make it so or begin practicing your mea culpas and/or do damage controls. The examiner arrives. If the audit goes well, it's over, the examiner leaves, prepares the report and sends it to you (analogy is waiting for the test results). If it went well, you go back to your daily grind with the knowledge that they will leave you alone until your number comes up again, if it does. If it doesn't go well, there are endless followup procedures that result in the patient either completely recovering, losing parts of their body or dying. Vicki

Bob, thank you. Had I realized your level of experience I might have written a little bit differently. I feel your pain, having been through two IRS audits - one of which turned into a "fraud audit" midstream due to events that transpired years before I was brought on board as Controller. Found those skeletons in the closet shortly after I was hired which led to some sleepless nights once we got the audit notice. We averted the fraud part of the program but I liken the experience to what a colonoscopy must be like:

Obviously shouldn't start typing before the brain is completely engaged - GAAP is Generally Accepted Accounting PRINCIPLES - not PROCEDURES. Whoops. Should also note - knowing the international nature of this forum - GAAP varies from country to country. Vicki

Bob, the Treasurer function reports to the CC. From a GAAP perspective, that takes you out of any accountability to the SM - a good thing. In the absence of any committee policies, for something routine like a deposit for summer camp, I would have just given the SM a piece of paper to initial requesting the check. In our troop, knowing the SM as well as I do, I would have just noted the scout's name in the memo line of the checkbook. I do keep a separate spreadsheet detailing which scout has paid a deposit, the full amount, got an official campership or a troop scholarship, etc. The other side of the spreadsheet is the payments we make associated with summer camp. GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures) is a very flexible framework that simply provides guidance to accountants in performing their job. You really don't have to worry too much about getting audited unless your CO asks for it. That would be a question for the committee. To us accounting types there are very strict definition associated with the word "audit". If what you are actually talking about is members of the committee looking at your work, that's up to the committee and how often/if they want to do it. Our committee meets once a month - if I were you, armed with the info from this thread and your research, I would pose some of these questions to the committee and get some feedback. Vicki

Trevorum, I didn't include the Dalai Lama because his life's legacy is not completely written yet. History hasn't finished with him yet:

I agree with Eisely - I detest unnecessary paperwork (heck, I even detest necessary paperwork:

jeopardy. Don't usually correct other people's spelling but it's the only constructive thing I can think of to do. I'll take my chances with my own immortal soul. Checked into this thread, checking out now. Life's too short. Vicki

Tax exempt is something you can only get through your CO. BSA does not allow individual troops/packs to incorporate so applying on one's own for tax exempt status is not an option. Anyway, here's a very good explanation of the federal tax status of scout units... Federal Tax Status of Scout Units The IRS recognizes the Boy Scouts of America National Council as tax exempt under IRS Section 501©(3). Through an IRS-granted group exemption, this status is extended to local councils and council trust funds. The tax exempt status of the Boy Scouts of America does not extend to, nor include, any Scout packs, troops, crews or other units, and no Scout units may be included within the BSA group exemption for the National Council. They are not subordinate organizations, and this is an IRS restriction. Units must obtain their own Employer Identification Number (EIN) or use the EIN of the chartering organization. Under no circumstances can a unit use either the EIN of the council or the BSA's group exemption number for purposes of gifts, federal taxes, or other related purposes. If a unit's chartering organization is tax exempt, and it allows the unit to use its EIN (or includes the unit under their group exemption), the unit could then be considered tax exempt as a subordinate of that organization. Gifts to the unit would be tax deductible as gifts to the chartering organization. Also, units should not apply for their own independent tax exempt status. Article XI or the BSA Charter and Bylaws states that "Contributions shall be solicited in the name of the Boy Scouts of America only through or by the authority of the Corporation and shall be limited to the National Council or chartered local councils...." Also, the BSA Rules and Regulations vests in each council power to "control the raising and expenditure of all funds for local Scouting work in their jurisdiction." Application for an Employer Identification Number IRS Form SS-4 is used to request an employer ID number from the IRS. This is needed to open a bank account for a Scouting unit unless the unit is allowed to use the EIN of the chartering organization (see above). This IRS Form SS-4 Acrobat (.pdf) file above can be filled in on computer from with Acrobat, but the Acrobat Reader will not allow a user to save the fill-in form to disk. This link takes you to a SS-4 form that is not filled in on computer. To fill out the form please follow the following BSA Instructions (2 Page Adobe PDF File) to ensure the form is filled out properly for your Pack, Troop, Crew, etc. NOTE: these are a complement to the below IRS Instructions. This link takes you to the IRS Instructions (6-page Acrobat document) are available to help units complete the form. The process is relatively simple, and there is no cost.

Lynda wrote >So the belief in a higher being was what I was getting at. > Me, too. That's why the important words for me, as I mentioned in the prior e-mail, are "faith" and "duty." God, and I think the BSA recognizes this but is having trouble with the politics of the situation, is way too big to put in a definitional box. Vicki

Just to establish the definitional playing field, so to speak, from the American Heritage Dictionary - god 1. a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. 2. a being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people. Duty 1. an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, social custom, law or religion. To discharge a duty as required by the Law, it would seem to me that one must have committed oneself to "an act or course of action." As Lynda points out (flippantly but true nonetheless), a Druid would fulfill this requirement in a normal grove service required by his/her faith. The key words being faith and duty in any discussion regarding this requirement. Absent the presence of these two, I don't think one can honestly sign the application or be in the BSA. Cubs, as far as the boys are concerned (not adults), might be a different matter - but even there the requirement binds the cub ever tighter as he progresses through the ranks. Vicki

Two separate issues, OGE - the man and his message. Just because I may have a great deal of respect for a person does not mean that I'm going to "do what he says." One thing all have agreed upon, whether or not they liked what he had to say, was that he was a man worthy of respect, unafraid to stand by his beliefs. The only other people I can think of who received that level of universal respect were Mahatma Gandhi and Mother Theresa. That alone is going a long way. Vicki

>MOM DID NOT SIT DOWN WITH US DURING THE INTERVIEW AND I DON'T THINK SHE MADE THE HUSBAND AWARE OF THE CONVERSATION AND CONCERNS SHE HAD WITH ME.> I guess this would concern me, then I'd have to put it firmly into the "none of my business" box and forget about it. How much contact do you have with the SM of his future troop? Not saying you should go running to him about this particular situation, but it will be interesting to see what happens down the line. Vicki

ps56k, if it's just "6 of one, half a dozen of another" I'd get the ID card and skip the passport. We had other good reasons to get the passports since our boys' birth certificates don't prove citizenship and we do go back and forth to Canada every once in a while. I just checked our state's website and an ID costs $11. Hmmm. Vicki

Passports are easier to get than you might think. There are probably a couple of the bigger post offices in your area that have a window for you to present your ID, the passport application, etc. A birth certificate or citizenship certificate (in the case of my boys or other internationally adopted children) serves as ID for the minor child and proof of eligibility. They will then mail it to wherever the passport issuing office is for your area. They're serious about both parents giving consent - that's because once the child has a passport either parent could travel to some countries alone with the child (other countries require a signed consent form from the absent parent before they'll admit the minor child). You'll get the documentation back along with the passport in the mail. Watch your timing though - it can take a while and expediting it costs more. If you google "passport application" I'm sure you'll get to the website for up-to-date info - it's been awhile since I had to deal with it...and as someone else already said, those passports have come in handy. Vicki

MajorBob, I instituted a less formal way of doing what you describe in our troop (they resisted anything more formal and it's not work so I could compromise). Any expense outside of the routine is OK'ed by either the CC or the SM before I write the check. If I can write the check directly to the outside party (for instance, directly to the provider of the pizza supplies for our fundraiser), so much the better. My next step is to ask the committee to put a policy in place that requires an approval for any expense over $xxx (I haven't decided yet). Then put some of the policies in writing - but I have a while to bring 'em along to that point. We're one of those troops that tends to "elect" people to the same position until they either don't want to do it any more, their kids finish/quit or they lose interest. My youngest is a WebII... As far as the mechanics of the job I use several Excel spreadsheets. We have individual Scout accounts, the bank account and High Adventure treks to track and that's been the easiest way for me to handle it. I just put together a budget for 2005 so I'm figuring out how to track that against the account. I'm looking at Troopmaster - folks tend to like it but I don't know how it is for just the financial part. Pretty sure I couldn't talk anybody into using it for anything else (at least not yet:

Scoutndad>How do I in good conscience, advance the Scout and not lose two of the best resources and poeple that I and the Pack have? I know it sounds selfish, but any help would be greatly appreciated. > Fuzzy, from the original post I have thought Scoutndad was in a quandary and trying to see a way out. An ethically and morally straight way out. While your post is a good reminder, I don't see him as trying to "get around" the requirements nor trying to proselytize. I'm not there, I don't know for sure, but if I was in his situation - Mom an agnostic, Dad a (assuming here) lapsed Christian and son a ? - I think I'd try "in good conscience" to do what I could to figure out what was going on before I decided I had to boot 'em out. Vicki

Actually, Hunt, that's not a bad comparison. Although hopefully there will always be more thieves out there than pedophiles. Which begs the question another poster posed - why not put safeguards around the money as we do around our children? Part of the reason, IMO, is that we don't want people to think we don't trust them. Far too many people get defensive around this issue...as I believe Reagan said, "Trust, but verify"! Vicki

Hope you don't mind the "quote and reply" style here and I'm not picking on Oak Tree, but he/she seemed to hit all the points others were thinking about in the same e-mail so here goes. Oak Tree wrote >Dual signatures sound like a great safeguard as a knee-jerk reaction, but I'm curious. How does it actually help prevent problems? > It helps prevent problems because hopefully each signer will scrutinize the expense before he or she signs the check. It makes it much more difficult to falsify an invoice and it means that collusion is required to commit theft. >If someone wanted to steal from the account, couldn't they just forge the second name? Does anyone think that the bank actually checks signatures? > The bank doesn't check anything unless a problem arises. If, upon review, a signature is forged or missing, the bank is then usually liable for reparation to the customer. >Chapter 6 says "An account that requires two signatures on each check, those of the committee treasurer and Scoutmaster, is recommended." > This allows for a clear separation of function (as opposed to having the CC and the treasurer), something auditors (myself included) get nice warm fuzzy feelings from:We just have the treasurer show us the report each month of all income and outgo, and looking at the bank statement can confirm it. > Yes, you can confirm income and outgo per the bank statement but you can't confirm whether or not a payment or deposit was valid/complete using this procedure. All kinds of fraud (with cute names) can be committed because individual payments and/or deposits are not verified. >The hassle of getting two signatures on every check would outweigh whatever security benefit there would be, at least for us (not clear that there'd be any benefit). > I'll be honest, I'm the treasurer for our troop (although I had hoped to do something that wasn't my bread and butter as my main function) and we don't require two signatures. The troop doesn't want to do it that way. There are some accounting controls I've put in place that help mitigate this. The most obvious one doesn't have anything to do with checks but is very basic so I'll use it as an example - I never handle cash someone else hasn't counted first and I always count it again in that person's presence. Vicki