Vicki

Well, and as long as we're talking water situations, I carry a calf sheath and knife when I go scuba diving - especially in lakes. Never know when you're going to have to cut your way out of a nest of fishing line. Without a knife, drowning is a very real possibility. Vicki

Neil, reasonable explanations are always in order. Sweeping generalizations are not. That's what got to me and I appreciate the apology. I very often come across as kinda anal-retentive - whoops. Be that as it may, I know and appreciate the intent of 21CWB. It has opened up opportunity for a lot of folks who otherwise would not have been included. My intent was simply to respond to EPs post concerning the selection process and provide my basis for that knowledge as it is done in my council, not to get into a discussion of how my council and others are "doing it wrong". In fact, when I wrote that post I knew that that element was not part of the National syllabus, but it was absolutely essential to the post. As I said in my earlier e-mail to Eamonn, that isn't within my purview. Vicki

We seem to be really hung up on "investment" and "ROI" - from the American Heritage Dictionary, definition 4 - "investment - a commitment, as of time or support." So Its Me is questioning the value of his and his son's "commitment of their time and support" to the scouting program. OK, no problem. He waved a couple of red flags in front of this particular group of folks and we responded as one would have expected:

You beat me to it, Ron. I have evaluated the value of the scout program for my sons and determined that my oldest will stay in until the cows come home (otherwise he would sit on the couch), but if my youngest says he wants to quit at some point, why, we'll have a conversation and I'll probably let him. As much as it will pain me to do so. But if I evaluated the value and decided it was wanting, why then my boys would have to tell me why they wanted to continue, no matter what the program was. That's why I'm called the parent and they're called children. Vicki

Welcome back from hibernation, Fuzzy! Magical moments, absolutely. The last camporee - not magical. Too much work, not enough fun and ill to boot. I think the scouts and Webelos had a good time, though. Wood Badge a couple of years back, NYLT last summer - there's fairy dust over those entire experiences and it glitters with magic. But it's the slog parts that make me appreciate the moments, but that's the way life as a whole is... Vicki

Kristi, sometimes it's the stronger, braver thing to do to just suck it in and walk away, especially when you think the court of public opinion is not with you. Whether that's the other parents, this forum, work, whoever. Obviously Ed's done it, I've done it - let 'em think what they want (and THAT's the hard part cuz it's awfully hard to think the weasels are having the last word - I WANT the last word!). You're the only one who has to walk in your shoes. You'll be stronger for it. Vicki

Neil, gotta admit, the tone of your e-mail kinda sticks in my craw. Just a hair on the high and mighty side. I don't know if my council applied for a variance, but they do tend to play by the rules. I do know that when COPE came out, our council pointed at our course and National agreed that our course is more difficult. So we do our course and National sends people to us. There are a couple of things from the old course that we've kept in NYLT, too. Doesn't make any difference to me. I'm here for the boys and the fun, not the politics. Vicki (not sweating the small stuff and it's all small stuff)

Eamonn, from what I gather, my Council has retained some elements of the old WB syllabus - one of them being the selection of a permanent patrol leader. To be honest, I don't know if they got permission to do it from National or not. Some things are not within my purview. Vicki

I'm not exactly sure of the details of the selection process in our council but I do know that there is a list of potential candidates that is made up of people recommended by WB staff members, and specifically TGs. The only reason I know this is because, as permanent patrol leader, after the course our TG asked me who I thought would be good and interested in serving on a future staff. I also know from talking to a couple of CDs that our council requires a relatively high percentage of new staff on each course and a specific number has to be from each district in the council. *assumption following* that newly fledged WBers progress is followed and that those who turn up on NYLT and adult leader staffs, in OA, have a better chance of being invited. Vicki (and a good ol' Bear too)

Fishsqueezer, I like your style. That post was spot on. Anarchist, yours was downright balanced:

Whew - just ambled in from the Issues/Politics part of the woods - what a relief to be here! (Sung LOUDLY AND RAUCOUSLY WITH FERVOR) I used to be a Bear and a Good old Bear too. But now I'm finished Bearing, and I don't know what to do. I'm growing old and feeble and I can't Bear no more. So I'm going to work my ticket if I can. Back to Gilwell Happy Land, I'm going to work my ticket if I can. Vicki

>As for me, it better get a lot better in Boy Scouts for me to stay in. By the way my favorite year as a den leader was the wolf year. The kids were great the parents were great. But five years latter still teaching the same old home safety rules, bike safety rules and assigning what amounts to be American history homework has gotten a little dull. > Sounds like a leadership problem to me. Don't think you're doing anybody any favors here, Its Me. The program is only as good as you're willing to make it. On a side note - Good luck with that select soccer thing, btw - it's a LOT more draining than scouts. Speaking from experience on that one. Vicki

Interesting take on the leadership. My first year scout is patrol leader. Can't advise you on the rest cuz I didn't do much with cubs - DH was tiger cub leader, then drafted for CC. Did a darn good job at it, if I say so myself! Pack was better than it was when he arrived when he retired. I picked up at Boy Scouts. You'll make your own decision, but the opportunity to help a boy learn how to make their own decisions in a relatively safe microcosm of society is, to me, priceless. In EVERY other activity I can think of a boy is told what to do, what is right, and what is wrong at every turn. "...ethical (and moral) choices over their lifetime..." Vicki

Well, can't help on the order, bein' a Bear and all, but I'll try be in the neighborhood when y'all get around to it... but in answer to the poster who commented on the 2005 manual establishing the "correct" patrol names - our Council still has Raven patrols, usually in place of a patrol name that had a particularly strong showing in the prior course. Vicki (Bears amble)

Let me say a couple of things (ok, several things) for the record: 1) I believe the uniform as one of the eight methods is important in terms of identifying the scout as a scout; 2) I believe the uniform can be a way of instilling pride in membership if worn correctly; 3) I believe that as a trainer I am responsible for imparting the "BSA Way" irrespective of my own opinions; 4) I believe that as a trainer I have a responsibility to make it interesting; 5) I believe that most scouters (at least in my district) already know how the uniform is supposed to be worn so to take up my very limited time explaining that is not a good use of energy. That said, thanks for the input! Great resources, as usual, for those who don't get defensive about getting advice once they've asked for it:

Thanks, Sue. As I was reviewing the material the other day I realized that the shirt I was wearing I got from e-bay. Made myself a note to remember that. Our troop does a uniform closet but no real effort has been put into it. It's good for a shirt every once in a while (but then our troop only emphasizes the shirt). I like the history idea! Something I could set up and they could browse during the break if they wanted to. If you get a chance, I'd like a little bit more explanation of your display - a pm will be heading your way shortly. Vicki

Lest it be thought that we here on the east coast of Missouri are any less progressive than our Florida brethren, we, too, have a female Wood Badge CD this year. There were at least two female TGs in our WB troop and 12 women. Three female WBers in the troop I serve and three on our district adult leader training staff. Several of us in OA, too! Vicki

Scoutldr, I have the syllabus and I have reviewed it (duh:

SA, we're on the same wavelength. You can get an insignia guide anywhere. Ideas for who to move them to want to where the uniform and be proud of it are a whole 'nother thing. Lisabob, it is for all leaders. V

Our council over here on the other side of John's state doesn't collect fees for MB apps, either. Vicki

Well, I was invited to join our training staff and did. Next week my topic is, tada!, the uniform. I have ten minutes - at least one of which I'm going to use suggesting that participants play nice. No matter how poorly a scout is wearing the uniform, there must be something on it that's right. Point that out. Any ideas for how to use the other nine minutes? That might be different and/or entertaining? I could just do the obvious - nine minutes isn't that long. But I don't wanna... Thanks, Vicki

My understanding is also that the copyright on the material is up this year (2006) after which BSA owns the material. gwd, you did say something about "filling a quota" in your council and maybe that's another reason for the pressure to go. I don't know about yours, but my council fills up at least a couple of months before the training starts, so there's no need to fill any quota. Vicki Vicki

Well, 2007 will probably be a very good year too! Have to admit, if I hadn't already taken Wood Badge, between adult leader training staff, NYLT P&P and doing the advancement stuff and outings for our troop (along w/new CC and SM) my DH might seriously question my sanity. Well, he kinda already does but he's decided to go along for the ride. This is probably a good choice for you. But I hope you make time in your Scouting calendar for it, instead of putting it off waiting for a round tuit. Vicki

Eamonn, I got the distinct impression that gwd-scouter is a woman, to quote, "it has been especially nice to hear from you ladies out there and about your experience with Woodbadge." Reading some of her other posts have also given me that idea. I also didn't get the impression that her troop is teetering on the brink of oblivion, but that she is very focused on their success and how to implement the program most effectively and get the most bang for her buck. In my humble opinion, this may be the perfect time for her to get involved with Wood Badge. But that's just me. Vicki

emb, the syllabus may have called for a coin (can't say it did or didn't) but I guarantee you no coin was involved in my course. Vicki