Vicki

Freeze frame on my husband as he negotiates the difficult terrain of a video game to emerge triumphant over our 14 and 11 year olds, inspiring awe and incredulity. He likes it, he's good at it and they love him for it (amongst other things). Do I understand it? No. I'm the one upstairs reading a book. Last week I was canoeing and backpacking with a bunch of scouts. Two weeks before that I was at summer camp with the 11 year old. The 14 year old is there this week. Our 11 year old is much more enthusiastic about scout "stuff" than the 14 year old was at his age. It's all about proportion. Vicki

I find this to be *almost* the most cordial forum I've ever participated in - there was a point, a year ago now?, that I wouldn't have said that, but the pendulum seems to have swung back. I say *almost* because there is a dutch oven forum I'm on that has zero controversy. That said, I have never once posted something that I wouldn't have said to the individual if that person was standing in front of me. I have been attacked upon occasion (engage body armor and move on). It's been worth it to mine the info I needed. On the whole, reminders to be polite and kind are never out of line. Unless, of course, I perceive it as an attack on my internet "style" (tongue firmly planted in cheek). Vicki (edited to correct punctuation - how appropriate is that!)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Agreed, Lisa'bob - I, too, am a Communications MB counselor. No 90 day requirement. It is extremely important to have details right in this biz. Vicki

firecrafter, I am so sorry that your scouts had a bad experience at NYLT. What was done there was obviously not any part of the Scout Oath and Law. As I get ready to leave for Pack and Paddle (an older-scout opportunity as part of NYLT), I know the SPL and TGs I'll be working with. I also remember the guys I worked with last summer. That sort of behavior just wouldn't happen. Our youth director would hit the roof, even if the guys thought of doing it (which they wouldn't). I hope you report this to the youth director (or course director, if you don't have a person specifically working with youth). Vicki

gilski, I feel your pain. If I understand your position correctly, you have a committee whose members have added a requirement to attain Life rank. You, as a group, are now rethinking that position in light of additional information because some parents (correctly, in my opinion) question whether or not this was appropriate. There's no rancor amongst you, simply honest discussion over coffee or soda. You have sought input from a much wider and more diverse group of scouters (and some scouts) than you will find anywhere else. Well, you got it, in spades, right? IMO, the bottom line is that your committee has added a requirement with the best of intentions but the fact is that adding a requirement is not within your rights as a committee or troop. I think it really is that simple. Vicki

SaintCad, I don't think the manner of the breakup is relevant in the sense you mean in your post. Personally, I think it's an opportunity to take the high road and fulfill the Scout Oath, Golden Rule (pick one) in the best sense of the words - handle it fairly no matter how the other side is behaving. Harder to do than to say, I know. That's what makes it the high road. Vicki

>control of the money seems to be very important> But if I read your post correctly, there's no money to control? It was all paid to the camp and now it's just a matter of getting the boys to camp, right? If you're talking about canceling the reservations of the scouts who formed a different troop, if your camps are like ours you'll only get about 2/3 of it back. That's really cutting your nose off to spite your face, IMO. If it wasn't ALL paid to the camp, and there's money left over, in a perfect world, the boys go to camp and the rest is divided pro rata between the troops. But then, it's not a perfect world and adults can get really ugly with each other, unfortunately. To get back to the question you asked, I think you're probably gathering that there is no "usual" troop policy. Vicki

OK, maybe I'm seeing this too simplistically, but it seems to me that if the camping fees have been pre-paid with the original troop (let's say 25 scouts have been paid and 10 left) that a phone call to the council camping office could result in two troops with reservations - one with 15 attending and one with 10. Always assuming there aren't logistical issues such as the camp not having sites available with those configurations. Other than the personalities involved, am I missing something? I don't think the fundraising aspect is relevant to the conversation? My priority would be getting the boys to camp. Vicki (edited to add a thought)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I love this sort of thread! In the middle of all the Issues/Politics/Uniform Police, harrumph-type stuff, a civil discourse on the merits of bugles vs. flugelhorns vs. cornets! Absolutely wonderful! Vicki (I mean it, no sarcasm, etc., meant nor implied)

Hey, I'm fine with whatcher doin'. Just FWIW, dont'cha know. Keep up the good work! Vicki

I'm with LisaB - I didn't even know medals existed! Vicki

Fredbot. I like that one. I kinda like the news service, even when I can't get my mind around how the author of the article could possibly think that way:

and my question stands, "do y'all award the rank before you hear from National?" You said, "My statement was that you could get a badge and give it to him but it would not be registered at National." Can't believe that's what you meant, but since you went to the trouble of repeating it, I guess you did. Vicki

LH, interesting thought, do y'all award the rank before you hear from National? "You can award the badge but it still won't be registered at National." We don't even schedule the ceremony (normally - but even if we did, it wouldn't happen until we got the paperwork back). Without subterfuge, we couldn't even buy the patch. I'm betting this situation has happened and has been resolved. We in the field are "better off" not knowing that as far as National is concerned. Less work for them and it really wouldn't happen all that often. Vicki

OK, re-reading posts. I agree with Hunt - it would get straightened out in the scout's favor. Still think it's craziness. And I used to work in the software industry - computers are machines. If garbage goes in, garbage comes out. Bad software design makes me angry. Vicki

There is no way software (not soft wear) can dictate that six months is 182 days. Six months is what you can count on your fingers (March, June, July, etc.). Period. I also can't imagine our council trying to tell some of our Scoutmasters that their Eagle candidates have failed over something like this. Especially since a move like that would be penalizing the eager beaver scouts. Not to mention that I know a lot of folks who sit on our Boards of Review and our Council Advancement Chair. If anybody suggested such a thing, the others would look at him/her like they'd grown another head. Nope. Ain't happenin'. Not here anyway. Vicki

Eamonn, I smiled as I read your post. A few years back when our guys (now almost 14 and 11) were learning time, DH and I looked around our house and realized we had NO analog clocks! The microwave, oven, VCR (at the time, now it's the cable company's version of TiVO), our alarm clocks - all digital. No wonder they couldn't tell time! So we went out and bought an analog clock and mounted it in the kitchen to teach them how to tell time. They're still not very good at it, even though we also bought one of those clock face toys where you can move the arms. They got good enough at it to get out of second grade:

Many congratulations OJ (and Eamonn, for keeping your mouth shut). How fun to be a proud father and feel your heart just go boom! Vicki (Mom/Scouter to a Lifer - my teeth are going to be worn down from keeping my mouth shut)

To follow up on what CA_Scouter said - Burke has a good saying on the topic of people of character not speaking up, but my favorite is attributed to Sir Thomas More, when asked for the sake of fellowship to join the nobles supporting an ancient king, More's reply was "And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for heeding your conscience, and I to hell for disregarding mine, will you come with me for the sake of fellowship?" Vicki

gwd-scouter wrote, "Maybe I'll start using that. Think my guys will do their "service" at home more cheerfully?" (VBG) Let me know how that works for you, OK? I have one who wades right in and gets the job done then looks around for something else to do and another who would just as soon somebody else do it... Go figure, Vicki

Lisa'bob wrote, "Individually, we have to decide how strongly we disagree and whether or not our disagreement is balanced out by the aspects with which we agree. And then, we need to decide whether or not there's anything we can or should be doing, effectively and realistically, about the elements with which we disagree. Or at least, that's how I approach it." This is how I approach the community of faith to which I have chosen to belong (some of whose policies (beliefs) I have very basic issues with) and the BSA (with which I have fewer issues than I do with my church). I will go one step further in evaluating my personal approach. If I find myself disagreeing so strongly that I must either speak up or leave, I will evaluate whether or not I could possibly make a difference and if the consequences will be worth it. I have spoken up and experienced some fairly negative consequences. Most of the time, it was worth it. I have also taken my ball and gone home. But that analysis will determine whether I speak up or leave. Vicki (edited to get rid of a redundancy) (This message has been edited by Vicki)

MaScout hit it on the head, "But they will be young adults living on their own. They need to learn survival skills. " None of the things we're talking about are anywhere near what our kids will need to know to get ahead in a profession. But unless they start their careers hiring housekeepers and lawn services, they'll need to have these skills. In fact, unless they start their careers without ever having had a "grunt job" they'll need to know this stuff. Just like the requirement for a first year to shop for his patrol, stay in the budget and go over the food groups represented, we're talking about survival skills. Because of what we do as an avocation, I would imagine we'll find the great majority of our kids do chores. I think I am a Scouter because I hold these ideals (was raised with 'em and think they're a pretty good standard) and therefore am raising my children that way. In the long run I think my guys will get more value from knowing how to do their laundry, cook, buy groceries, mow and clean a house than they will get from knowing how to play soccer. Revolutionary thought, eh? Vicki

I'll echo a couple of others - he hasn't been to my house. This is the second spring/summer that our almost-14 year old has been responsible for mowing the lawn. He also takes his turn w/his brother doing dishes and they're both responsible for their rooms and their laundry. Older son and I have a dog apiece - we both clean up after them. Younger son has a cat - he feeds him and does the kitty litter. They both help clean up the house when people are coming over. Setting the table and such are givens. My youngest often helps cook. Do they do it all well? Nope. Is one better than the other? Absolutely. Willingness and standards are definitely an issue. It would be a lot more efficient if I still did all the laundry - I'm certain they wear "re-cycled" clothes to school every once in a while. And I really don't like finding the veggie peeler only after several minutes of searching. My folks tell me those were problems "back in the day" too:

Emb, obviously you are correct - Venture Fast Start was a typo on my part (as Vicky was on yours:

Berlin, just so you have the official text, verse and reference, here's the URL to Venture Fast Start where it addresses uniforming http://www.scouting.org/venturing/faststart/uniform1.html Here's the actual text. This should, hopefully, silence your uniform police. Venturing Uniform The uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew. The recommended uniform is the spruce green Venturing shirt with green epaulette tabs and gray backpacking-style shorts or gray casual pants. However, the uniform is the choice of the crew. Sea Scouts may wear the Sea Scout uniform. For those crews that choose to have the Venturing uniform, it is recommended to wear it when traveling, at crew meetings, at other Scout meetings, when serving the public, and at other appropriate times. When doing field activities such as sports, water activities, mountaineering, etc., your crew might want to wear something more appropriate to the activity. Vicki