Vicki

Ed wrote "asking questions like "Tell us how you'd did (fill in the blank) for (fill in the blank)?" isn't retesting. " Ed, you've gone down this road before with others. This isn't the question CNY asked, it's one of your favorite hobbyhorses. This is me not rising to the bait. Vicki

Well, Ed, since we're not asking him about specific requirements, it wouldn't come up. That was easy. Vicki

I don't agree with Ed that a BOR should be in a position to tell a scout he hasn't completed the requirements to advance in rank. The SM is the one who ascertains whether or not the basic requirements are fulfilled. However, Stosh, it seems to me the BOR IS the last requirement for advancement otherwise, and I hate to be really simplistic about this, there wouldn't be a box the same size as the one above it (where the SM signs) for the chair of the BOR to sign. That says to me, quite clearly, that the BOR can deny advancement much the same way the Senate can "not approve" an executive appointment. Or maybe I'm just making a complicated thing way too simple (sarcasm here is intended to be gentle). I see it as a checks and balances system and however troops want to implement it within the really general guidelines we're provided is up to them. It's a really good way to see if your program is working but it absolutely should have a "formal" feel to it, IMO. The only cautionary note that I would provide is two-fold and I think it addresses CNY's original question. (I really don't want to come off as pedantic and/or arrogant here, just really concerned that we do our best for young men who hopefully haven't been knocked around quite as much as we have (yet).) One, while advancement is not the primary objective, to the extent that we don't prepare a young man to obtain his Eagle, if he wants it, we have failed him. Two, our council, at least, is very particular about checking out the qualifications of each and every Eagle. To the extent that we don't do our part in making sure that i's are dotted and t's are crossed, we have again failed him. The scout's book, properly filled out, his MB cards, and/or the troop's record-keeping will, and have, trumped council's record-keeping in many "pushes". This is definitely part of what the BOR is, indirectly, doing when it reviews the scout's book (CNY's original question, I believe). I've included a reference from scouting.org below. Note where it says the BOR is an opportunity to "monitor the scout's advancement and keep him on track." Vicki from http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html Question: What is a board of review, and what is its primary purpose? Answer: The troop committee conducts a board of review to periodically review each Scout's progress, from Tenderfoot through Life ranks, to encourage him, to learn whether he is enjoying his Scouting experience, and to evaluate the unit's effectiveness in conducting the Scouting program to benefit him. The review presents a good opportunity to monitor the Scout's advancement and keep him on track. It also gives unit leaders a chance to measure the effectiveness of their leadership. The troop committee appoints three to six individuals to conduct the board of review. Question: How often is a board of review held? Answer: Whenever a Scout completes all the requirements for any rank, from Tenderfoot through Life, he appears before a board of review. He does so after having a conference with his Scoutmaster. Note that when a Scout has completed all the requirements for a board of review and then requests to have a board of review, he may not be denied a board of review.

Well, Gunny and I are from the same general neck of the woods, so it shouldn't be a surprise when I say that everything except the water activities and stuff involving rocks and towers go on as usual. Of course, tornado advisories and such are a completely different animal than simple rain - as Gonzo suggests, quite reasonably. Hopefully reasonable people make reasonable decisions based on the facts available. It's really easy to second-guess once you know that severe weather cell was forced south of you and the predicted (hah, just TRY to predict weather in eastern Missouri!) downpour didn't happen. Our summer camps also have a fire and severe weather drill (different blasts on the horn for each) every Tuesday. Like a buddy check, camp activities stop until every troop does what they're supposed to do. I noticed when we went out of council that other camps don't necessarily do this. Does yours? Vicki

I'm with Ed on this one - younger son's aforementioned troop has absolutely declined to approve scouts at a BOR, almost always at the Star or Life levels. I will say it doesn't happen very often. We've let the scout know what he needs to do and suggested he return as soon as he's ready (we can normally put together a BOR almost immediately). We have set the expectation from the Tenderfoot level that a scout will know the Oath and Law, the Outdoor Code, the parts of the badge, and a basic history of scouting and be able to discuss them at an age-appropriate level with three adults (sometimes an older scout). Notice I said discuss. We aren't reviewing requirements, we're working on understanding what Scouting is all about and helping the scout place it in the context of the larger world. We're also working on adult association. Just so happens that this is also Eagle Board stuff, at least in our council, so we're getting them used to discussing it and fairly relaxed about it. Even if the scout never gets to an Eagle Board, it's worth the effort - he's going to have to interview for a job some day (usually sooner rather than later for a Star or Life scout) and this is a safe environment to learn those skills. Oh, my, there we go providing a safe environment in which to take risks again:

Much faster! Thanks! Thanks also for all you and your cadre of dedicated helpers do, too. This is probably the best site I've found for all sorts of scouting info (and gossip and hearsay and opinion, too)! and relatively flameless...wow... Vicki

Both the troops I've served have pretty much followed LisaBob's troop's philosophy - most of the folks (adults and scouts) have most of the uniform, some of them have all of the uniform, and some have the shirt (and necker and hat, which the troop provides). We ASM-types have the entire thing, down to the socks. I'd feel uncomfortable at a scouting function in anything else:

An observation - in both the troops I've served, the AC also tracked camping nights (having served as AC in my first troop). This was critical information for OA, camping MB and just keeping track of activity levels. In both cases, depending on who the scouts and adults in attendance were, it was sometimes difficult to find out who had attended outings, but, in general, I'd either get a list or call an adult/scout who was there and create one. Vicki

CNY, I think (FWIW) that what you've written is a really reasonable response to a potentially prickly situation where a lot of folks could get upset and start throwing rule books around when all it takes is sitting down and talking about it. When my younger son decided not to stay with his older brother's unit (more to do with the unit and not the relationship), I learned exactly how differently two units could handle BORs and still stay within the lines. His new unit was very much into knowing the badge, the Scout Oath and Law, the Outdoor Code and being able to talk about it all in their own words (within the limits of their age and stage). His prior unit, to say the least, wasn't into any of the "rote memorization stuff" and wanted to talk more about program, roses and thorns, MBs, etc. Both, BTW, for your reference, require the Scout to bring the book and the BOR leader signed off upon approval in the box provided. Having lived with both approaches now, I can see validity to both. After two years and two summercamps with the new unit, I have started to ask the scout a tad more about roses and thorns and they're OK with that... Vicki

Hi, my name is Vicki...and when I did NYLT Pack and Paddle last summer I took those (shudder) Folger's individual coffee bags, fired up a backpacking stove and brewed myself 6 ozs of coffee, just to stave off that headache that someone mentioned earlier in the thread. This, from a person who grinds her own beans and brews with fresh water at home. Tobacco, on the other hand, is a nasty habit that affects other people (second-hand smoke and the afore-mentioned $80K construction project as examples) and the environment (someday you'll see my name in the paper when one too many people flips a butt out of the car ahead of me). As an ex-smoker of many years, I firmly believe that if a person can't hold off smoking until they are out of the smell-range of scouts, they should probably consider their value to the program and where they can best serve. Just my opinion, campfire chatter and YMMV. Vicki

Hmmm, I apologize, I guess. I thought I was being careful enough. Re-reading it again, I still think I was being careful enough, actually. Vicki

Mark, I understand what you mean. Our lodge does, indeed, start the ordeal at summer camp with the induction ceremony and finishes it in the fall at the Reunion. For me, it was incredibly meaningful. The new inductee fulfills all the requirements and is awarded a leather neck thong with the lodge totem to be worn at all scouting functions until the ordeal is completed (including the last two days of summer camp, so inductees are marked people). So the symbolic progression is maintained. Completing the ordeal at the Reunion also gets the inductees out of the sight of their fellow campers. In a way, for me, it meant more to begin at summer camp w/everyone else at the call out and finish as an Arrowman amongst other Arrowmen. Vicki (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

OGE wrote, ""Only a LEO would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime." Only a Law Enforcement Officer (one who deals with this sort of thing on a regular basis) would originate... Come on, either take it private or get over it! Vicki

AND, strictly soasto not be identified solely as a thread hijacker - Scott, I would enroll my son in the weapons instruction course. Basic firearms safety sounds really boring and I would check in advance before assuming that safety would be included in any weapons instruction since we all know what they say about assuming. Always assuming we're talking Boy Scouts here and not Cub Scouts where, of course, the G2SS, rules and regs, would, I'm sure, have something to say. Quick, another opportunity to hijack the thread!!! HAHAHAHAHA!! Vicki

Packsaddle wrote, "Have we beat this dead herring enough yet?" Which one? The feminist, or the PC language, or the "guns don't kill people, people do", or the over-sensitive, too quick to take offense? Sure hope Scott got his answer somewhere along the way! Would a dead herring be easier to beat than a horse? Although it would squish too quickly to be at all satisfying. VBG! As the probably not-so-immortal bard once sang, "send lawyers, guns and money." Vicki

Barry wrote, "...she will let me." Sigh. Grin. Elizabeth Barrett Browning once wrote (and I've never been able to find the quote again to attribute it correctly), "I just want the human race to end in a tie." Done. No agenda, th-th-th-that's all, folks! Vicki

FScouter wrote ""I didn't take it as an insult, ..." It's easy for a third party to interpret a comment as not an insult when it's directed at another person. " and this entire sub-thread is a particularly good example of why one should develop a thick skin before venturing into the internet world. Even better, an ability to give a person the benefit of the doubt before sending a snap, judgemental reply, eh? Or googling what an LEO is in order to have complete knowledge? Vicki

OGE, it's Law Enforcement Officer. I didn't take it as an insult, maybe a little sarcastic, but more commenting on the probable cultural context of the person making the statement. Also taking Gunny's screen name into account, I was particularly unwilling to read it as an insult of another person in uniform. Not trying to put words into Gunny's mouth, just my own interpretation of a statement made in a problematic medium. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I'm not usually one for "yeah, what he/she said" but I'm with Gunny and Lisabob on this one - and, Barry, it's so hard to slip that cultural leash, isn't it? Especially when mommy usually IS the problem. Female scouters tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Vicki

GSLAC's largest summer camp, S-F, has elections on Thursday morning - all Arrowmen wear their sashes and a lodge officer comes to each campsite to supervise the election. All those eligible roll up their sleeping bag and a groundcloth just in case. Thursday evening is the callout ceremony (also family night so family members get to find out if their son was called out). The candidates are led away by Arrowmen in silence, taken back to their campsite to get their gear, and taken to the OA campfire. From there to the overnight. Back to the central firepit in the morning and dismissed to their campsites. The actual Ordeal is done at the Fall and Spring OA Reunions. Vicki

FScouter, in reference to beating a dead horse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse Vicki (edited by author)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Seein' as I'm from St. Louis (the furthest North southern city or vice versa, schizophrenic at the best of times), I not only have "you guys" but also "y'all"! I had noticed the lack of notification, glad somebody followed up on it:

Eamonn, I have served in two churches over the last seven years - the reason I mention it is because, where it comes to dealing with volunteers, ministry and the Boy Scouts are very similar. The point of my e-mail is to say that the person who can just buck up and apologize with no reservations or "buts" is rare indeed, not to mention one who realizes he should apologize in the first place! Nice to "meet" one - Vicki (edited for punctuation)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been following this closely and was really relieved at the happy outcome: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070320/ap_on_re_us/missing_boy_scout but as I've followed this story, I think, "hmmm, buddy system?" as scout wanders off after lunch, "two deep" as they recount that one adult was left at camp because the scout wanted to "sleep in." Sleep in!! What's up with that:

gwd, as usual, it sounds like folks are providing sound thoughts. I'd just chime in with this note (pun intended: