Vicki

>Well another reason that they may not be out on camp outs over the weekend is who will take care of their other kids while they are gone? > Uhhh, dad? This is part of that reverse sexism thing that also bugs me (not that I have a lot of things that bug me:

>"my idea of camping out is the Hilton." I am not deriding women, I just think that this perception of camping is why you do not see more women on Cub campouts. > and I will share with you that it''s one of the reasons my DH did Cubs and I do Boy Scouts. Men and women alike would make this comment (mostly women) and I would just weakly smile. Drove me crazy. Now my fellow female Boy scouters? I''m pleased to say I haven''t heard that comment in years! BTW - our OA chapter just elected a female Adviser. Vigil honoree and one of the most dedicated scouters I know. Vicki "I used to be a Bear" ASM-NYLT P&P Brotherhood - WWW

>If boys are to learn respect for women and how to interact with women, it takes a man to teach them, not a woman. Boys learn how to respect women not from a woman, but from watching how their father and other male role models demonstrate respect for women. > I''ll be so glad when we all realize that people learn to respect and interact with people from other people. Men need to learn to respect other men, too. So do they learn that from women? Vicki "I just want the human race to end in a tie" Eliz. Barrett Browning

On the sleep apnea front, one of my WB patrol members had a battery powered CPAP machine. Don''t know the ins and outs, just that he charged the battery during the day so he could use the machine at night. Vicki

The only shows I watch are Eureka and Dr. Who - and I could live without those (I usually end up watching them as recordings anyway). DH and my oldest? Not in a million years!! I''ve tried asking them to limit it and it just doesn''t work. Of course, oldest isn''t watching right now because of his grades and, yes, I do believe there is a direct correlation - especially since youngest is in AP classes and gives the box up regularly in order to do homework. Vicki

Yep, tube tent, definitely. Approx 1970, Mono Lake - really ugly choice between getting eaten alive by the mosquitoes or getting condensed on in the tube. Not that keeping the ends tied kept out that many of the little biters in the first place... Love those coffee bags, though. And the really small flashlights. Vicki

Hey, did you see the aforementioned toasted ravioli made it into National Geographic? Sept. 07, in the unnumbered front pages under Culture....to lift a quote, St. Louis native Amanda McDougall, "It''s not a trip home unless you get toasted ravioli." Vicki

ah, Pack, just moving...and isn't the expectation of regularity a good thing? Certainly makes skipping to the loo easier. Vicki

Gern, I, too, have been known to check the supply. But just one moment of inattention... I have understood from my beloved that men's room etiquette is quite a bit more dour than the more convivial atmosphere in the lady's loo. Vicki

Well, and I don't really know how it works in a men's room (for obvious reasons), but in a women's restroom if you speak to the person in the stall next to you and wave your fingers under the wall, you are probably asking for toilet paper. If you still don't get the other woman's attention, you might wave a foot. Not saying that's the situation here, but that's how we ladies do it. Vicki

OK, whoa guys - when I wrote "page pervert" I meant Foley - I just couldn't remember his name at the moment. And I wasn't calling Clinton a pervert, per se. He did use his position of dominance to seduce a person who was not in a position of dominance - gee, that's never happened before. Then lied about it and used cute semantic games. I used the word "hubris" meaning pride, meaning thinking yourself to be above the law, ethics, morality, etc. Of course, then I get a response about "somebody named Hubris" and that point got lost in the namecalling. The point being that our society is losing its way across the board. The belief that breaches of trust and honor (using Pack's words, they fit) are irrelevant somehow seems to be gaining hold. The loss of an understanding that without trust and honor, no matter what our core beliefs, we are nothing. In our efforts to promote our own ideologies and defend those who espouse them we are losing sight of the fact that ideology isn't everything. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

As a person on the conservative to moderate spectrum politically, it all makes me sigh and shake my head. Hubris. Vick, Craig, Skilling, the Tycho CEO, Bill Clinton, the page pervert, the list is becoming endless. And sordid. Moral and ethical compasses gone awry. Vicki

A true St. Louisan will crave toasted ravioli (that boiled stuff is just nasty) and strip steaks. Also tomatoes in July and August - homegrown tomatoes from here are like no others, one benefit of our particular combination of heat and humidity. We (and our S. Illinois friends, as before mentioned) also happen to have some of the best bbq in the U.S. What I miss from San Francisco - sourdough bread, the best coffee I've ever had, and Northern Italian restaurants. St. Louis has some really great Italian food (we do have the Hill, after all) but I've never had a marinara prepared like I've had in North Beach (I've come close in my own kitchen, maybe it's the Gilroy garlic). Now, going a little further afield, when I was in Lima, Peru, they do roasted chicken on a spit, rotated over a bed of charcoal, served with this mustard/garlic/turmeric dipping sauce that I've never been able to duplicate in my own kitchen. And then they deliver it! They are also deservedly world renowned for Pisco Sours and ceviche (both of which I have managed to duplicate at my hearth). Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I read that article - I was shocked. I started a Master's program in January so I'm a little bit off the pace, but I've probably read 40 books this year. Relaxation is science fiction and mystery. DH discovered three new SF authors whose names, of course, escape me at the moment. Now THAT was fun! Non-textbook, but not relaxation either - books about working with ADHD/autistic/differently abled children. Three guesses why that would be an interest for an ASM/MB counselor! Currently reading Eugene Peterson's "Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places." I remember Kant from an independent study project I did on philosophy - "the starry heavens above and the moral law within" (inscribed on his tomb - I'll admit I had to look it up to get it right due to partial memory). Interesting that he and Buddhism have transcendental idealism in common. My mom used to punish me by sending me to my room. Then she figured out that that really wasn't punishment if she let me take my book with me. Vicki

>esky in my boot > The cooler in your car's trunk? Vicki in Missouri, USA

crw, I looked at your other posts and, at least from your viewpoint, there does seem to be an issue w/your SM. The four SMs I've worked closely with would be more likely to give up their morning coffee than allow the OA election rep to be the only one who knows the results. Here's what I've observed in my neck of the woods (Greater St. Louis Area Council). The SM (or ASM designate, if absolutely necessary) knows absolutely everything that's going on in an OA election. He or she is the one who is supposed to certify the scouts as eligible and approve those elected (depending on how the troop/OA lodge conducts the process these two steps may have variations from what I've gathered). At the very least, the SM is there counting votes right along with the OA rep. Vicki

Observations only. In my council elections are traditionally held the Thursday of summer camp with callout that night. If we're going out of council for summer camp, then they're held during a designated troop meeting. As a general rule, the elections held at summer camp seem to be much less of a "popularity contest" and more along the lines of "is this someone you would like to camp/tent/live with." My personal opinion ONLY, I'm not a big fan of elections held at a troop meeting. OA is an honorary camping and service society. Elections should be held at camp among those who have camped. Others have different opinions and that's just fine. Really. Not going to spin off the thread. The two troops I've had the honor of serving have only once elected a candidate that made me wonder (turns out he "made nice" with our large first year contingent during summer camp). I've seen only one candidate elected out of a dozen. This summer one troop had five out of thirteen, another had three out of six. As others have said, OA is youth-run, much more so than Boy Scouts. The boys have spoken, it's done. All you can do at this point is make sure there wasn't an administrative error in your son getting notified. Even then, as someone else suggested, your son should be the one who calls and asks the SM, not you. As a parent and camper, it is difficult sometimes to accept the election results, but they are what they are. Vicki

B-WWW wrote, "As for the instigators of this there should be some serious counseling of these boys. Everyone involved needs to understand how every action has a consequence and sometimes it is not intended." Absolutely! I believe one of the key problems today is the tendency of folks to say, "Oh, I didn't mean to do (fill in the blank)" and expect the problem caused by their action to go away just because they didn't mean to do it, or they lost their temper, or they were too drunk. It would be too easy to allow the "boys will be boys" mentality to prevail. SM conference, maybe a BOR, some anger management counseling - not necessarily professional, anyone who has had serious anger issues as a kid and grown through them (that would be me) is in a position to help others. Learning the physical cues associated with anger and how to handle them, the social consequences, it's all incredibly important. Maybe S does need to be removed from the troop, at least for a bit, just to let some time go by. Might not hurt to have ongoing meetings with the other boys involved (once a month, 15 minutes before or after the meeting to talk about what has made them mad in the last month and how they worked through it?). This sort of thing can have a really meaningful, positive impact or it can go completely south if retribution is the only outcome. Not saying it will be, just hoping not. Look forward to seeing how the meeting turned out. Vicki

"I'm sorry, where does fair come into the equation?" "Did that sound anything like a request?" "English is your first language, right?" I'm afraid I actually did say that last to a scout the third time I had to tell him to get back to his assigned swimming area (NOT a swimmer), with his buddy, in a very crowded lake where I was lifeguarding. I did know he spoke English:

Thanks, Hops. I was just spooling down the thread wondering how those clays just happened to wander out into a random group of boys' hands myself. The ranges I've been on (granted, limited) the clays are either in the shed or downrange, either one of which should have been off-limits. Most I've ever had to do was confiscate a knife once and stop a fight another time (both NYLT, not my home troops). I feel lucky, reading this. Definitely S goes home, but I think I might have stopped right there to find out what happened, no matter how late it was. All good ideas given to handle it now that it's after the fact. Vicki (fixed a typo, again)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Well, there ya go - CalicoPenn just proved my point. Talk to your Lodge. If you don't know how to find them, ask the Camping person at your nearest Scout office, they should know. Just an aside, OA is definitely worth the effort. You'll hear adults joke about how they're only there to drive - OA is truly youth-run. Be aware, as I am now aware, that you may have some "illegal" local variances. You may tread on toes rather hard if you try to start quoting national OA to your local folks. I have a tendency to just keep my mouth shut unless I'm at a campfire with the Lodge Adviser, a cup of coffee in our hands and some time to kill. Thanks for the official link, C-P. WWW, Vicki (typo edit)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I don't see in the rules where you need to have 50% of your active troop present to conduct the election - but that doesn't mean it isn't so. But the kind of info (outdated, misinformation, correct or misunderstood or local variance) being presented here is why it would be a really good idea to get in touch with your Lodge. They're the ones who have to approve it, set it up and conduct it anyway so their interpretation of the rules is the only one that matters anyway:

robvio, here is a link to our Lodge web-site and the rules that govern elections. Ours are, I understand, in compliance with National OA standards, so you may find them helpful. Since I had absolutely nothing to do with it, I can say that we have a pretty good web-site. http://www.shawneelodge.org/by-laws/index.html Specifically, a scout eligible to vote can vote for all, none, or any candidates and a candidate is elected by getting 50% of the vote. But, honestly, your Lodge are the people to contact. WWW, Vicki

Stosh, I'm not talking about mandates and it seems to me you're startin' to get a little personal here. But this is the internet and it's hard to read another person's intent. I'm known to be all about this boy-led stuff, but adults are supposed to provide advice, guidance and support. From p. 124 of my Scoutmaster's Handbook, "The purpose of the board of review is not to retest but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. Each review should also include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life." and "At the end of the review, the Scout will leave the room while the board members discuss his qualifications. Then they will call him back to tell him that he is qualified for his new rank, or to outline very clearly what more he must do in order to successfully complete the requirements." That's pretty much how I described our BOR process and as long as you're covering those bases, you've done a BOR. If you're not covering these topics, without adding to them, then you may want to think about things a little bit more. It's a fine line we walk in guiding and teaching and allowing mistakes to happen and be learned from. A safe atmosphere in which to take risk is the goal (which I think I said in a prior e-mail). Boy-led does not mean only the boys have responsibility. Vicki (fixed a typo)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Stosh, the boxes are there to indicate that the Scout has completed the advancement required for the rank and four to seven adults (or older sccouts) agree. That's one SM and three to six on a BOR, per the book. SM does the basics and program, the BOR does the "philosophical" stuff and program. In an ideal world, that's done without power trips or judgment and a scout is never "denied" advancement, he is simply advised as to what he needs to do to complete the rank. I've been pretty lucky, I guess, cuz in the troops I've had the pleasure of serving it's worked pretty well. Obviously YMMV. But, Stosh, I think we're closer to agreeing on the basics than we are disagreeing on the fine points. Vicki