Vicki

Hmmm, married to a Navy guy, two sons, hangin' around scouts as long as I have...yeah, that would be a grin. I don't tend toward the shrill and I'm definitely not above yankin' back on a chain every once in awhile just to see what will happen:

Pack, "must" is a word to be used sparingly, if at all and I ain't chargin' into anything. Y'all are completely misunderstanding my attitude here. This just isn't a topic I'm willing to discuss in this venue - like I said, I'm grinning and walking away... now, if we actually were sitting around a campfire with a cup of coffee, well, it would be a whole different conversation. Vicki

Wow. GW, that statement was so blatantly sexist (on both sides of the fence) it borders on Voltaire-esque satire. I understand you may think it's justified because a woman said it - well, there are some very sexist women out there too. I don't have much use for them, either. There just isn't a response that would make sense to you if you truly believe what you wrote. Must be time to grin and move on. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

No argument there. Hope you understand how one could infer what I did from your post. Thanks for the clarification. Vicki

No kick, just a big sigh. Same line of thought has women in burkas and chadors in the Middle East. Takes two. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

got2surf, congratulations! I believe you've received your answer (in spades, as normal for this board) - you don't have to bother anybody, just take your cards to your scout shop and buy replacement MBs. I have been the Advancement Chair - as such, I have gone to my scout shop and purchased the MBs to match the advancement report I was turning in. Quite a labor of love for the fall COH with an active troop at summer camp! I am mother to two scout sons - as such, I have gone to my scout shop and purchased two replacement merit badges. The first time, I did not have the card with me but knew the woman behind the counter really well and she sold it to me (mentioning that I should have brought the card). The second time, I had the card but didn't present it immediately and was asked for it. At one time, there was a sign that said you couldn't buy MBs w/out either the card showing it was earned or the advancement report showing the recording of the MB as earned. They've redesigned recently and I don't know if the sign is still there. That's my council, YMMV, Vicki

>Patrol Method is learned by LIVING the Patrol Method, NOT by studying "leadership" theory. What NYLT has to offer is a week in the company of the best Patrol Leaders in the Council. > This is pretty much the philosophy our council uses (I've staffed NYLT twice). It's patrol method cooking, each participant gets the chance to be PL, duty rosters, daily PLCs, all under the watchful eyes of a youth SPL and three TGs. The youth I've worked with as staff have been some of the most outstanding youth I've ever met. The presentations, games, etc., are also part of the schedule. It's a busy week! Youth are not allowed to register for NYLT unless their Scoutmaster has been through training. Vicki (This message has been edited by Vicki)

LOL, Pack! Yep, I'm out here - consider it pronounced. Almost passed up this thread, it's not my usual reading. You made my day (one that wasn't starting out well). Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

(Grin) I'm off to take some scouts camping this weekend - beautiful weather here in the great U.S. flyover. Have a good one, all! Vicki

No, Bob, you're the one not getting it - your questions are not relevant to my point, nor are you making any effort to understand my point. I will not be drawn down your rabbithole. Done. Emb, hmmm, I knew I was in a big, active council. I am only now beginning to appreciate how big. Our NYLT structure is one CD per course and four scoutmasters, four ASMs, QM corps, and commissioner. Over a summer, that's four CDs and 16 scoutmasters. The CD is responsible for recruiting SMs and ASMs for their course and there is another individual responsible (w/the CD) for recruiting youth staff, which is ideally an SPL and three TGs per troop - 16 per week, 64 per summer. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

But David, the way I read it, it says NYLT Scoutmaster, not Course Director. In our council at least, I would agree with you completely - we put up to 200 scouts per week (three troops in camp plus a high-adventure version) four times per summer. Those four CD's absolutely put in hours and hours of blood, sweat and tears. The individual troop SM? Not so much. But I would still advocate a separate recognition system. Or, revolutionary thought, do away with adult recognition altogether. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

OGE, that's not it. It goes back to the original intent of the WB beads and the significance they have for, specifically, adult leader training. There is no tradition relating the WB beads to youth training. To force such an association dilutes both programs, IMO. It also has nothing to do with what I feel I've earned - I would have a third bead under either scenario (assuming I serve on yet another NYLT staff and fulfill that set of requirements, which I would do in any event, being one of those folks who gets the training available for the position). I've already served as WB staff. In fact, as I re-read the requirements, I've been invited to serve as an SM for NYLT - I'm not sure I'd wear that 4th bead outside of the NYLT program. I wouldn't want to wear it in front of a WB course director! I believe it would be more productive to come up with a recognition that sufficiently honors those adults who serve on NYLT staffs and fulfill those requirements. I think it betrays a certain lack of imagination on National's part that they decided to do it this way. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Bob, you're not getting it, which is fine. Maybe someone else can explain it better than I. Like the e-mail autoresponse says, "I'm sorry. Your message is undeliverable, I've given up." Vicki

Bob, I have the right to comment on what I believe is an inappropriate use of an award which I think will result in a cheapening of both programs. "Worried" is not a word I would apply except in that I think National should rethink their strategy on this one. I am not "worried" about what others have or have not done. As a registered member of this program, a dedicated volunteer, and a donor to FOS, I am a stakeholder in this program and will offer my opinion whether or not anyone asks for it. I know, contrary to what some think, that National does actually listen to what its stakeholders say - whether or not it always changes a proposed action is another story. That's not my problem. I believe a serious mistake is being made here. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

and John, I absolutely agree for reasons stated in another thread. Create another recognition system if we need to recognize adults with anything but a shield, but leave BP's legacy alone. Vicki

Ed, I disagree. The scout's book should be the primary source for tracking advancement, the troop's the backup. That's where the first signoffs occur (especially at campouts), not in whatever record the troop is keeping. As we review our records, the initials in the scout's book will almost always trump the records. The book follows the scout from troop to troop (as in Son2's case) and when the advancement person in his old troop failed to forward the records and didn't notify council of his advancement with that troop (or council lost it), well, the book sufficed to get things handled. Scouts are told that they should have two things at meetings - as complete a uniform as possible and their book. IMO, as stated earlier and in agreement with Neil, it's a really good way to teach responsibility in a relatively harmless way. There will be much harsher lessons learned later on. Now, in terms of scheduling BORs, I am completely opposed to a rigid schedule (quarterly, monthly, whatever) unless a troop just can't do it any other way - in which case that troop may need to revisit how good a job it does of integrating adults. Doing it according to a rigid schedule just postpones advancement for the convenience of adults - hmmm, a tad bit of putting the cart before the horse. IMNSHO, of course. Vicki

I have had the joy of serving two troops at this point with two sons - one whose BORs are too relaxed and the second whose BORs are wound just a tad tight (IMO, in both cases, obviously). Both troops did, however, require the scout to bring his book as a hard and fast rule. I like the idea of whoever chaired the BOR saying to the scout, "you know, you should have brought your book, bring it to me to sign off and we'll be good to go. But remember, it is your responsibility to bring your book as the official record." Get the idea across with a minimum of pain and anguish. Especially since he had other documentation. Good grief, how prepared can you get? Maybe I missed something, but I hope your troop isn't planning on convening another BOR? Edited part follows: From the tone of your initial post, it sounds like your troop only convenes BORs at specified times? Most of the troops I'm familiar with will do a BOR at the drop of a hat, based on enough adults/qualified scouts at a location at a given time for the scout to ask. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

I don't know if you bought your backpack at a good retailer or not, but if you did it might be worth your while to go back there and ask them to show your son how to pack it. Actually, even if you didn't buy it there, it might still be a good idea - the "mountain gear heads" I've known who work at those shops won't care, because they're in it for the discount (and usually really like to show newbies how to do things), and the manager of the store won't mind because he/she will be on the lookout to sell you stuff. Especially if the emphasis is on your son learning - they'll have a customer for a very long time. Don't be embarrassed, we all started somewhere! And your son might end up with a more comfortable trip. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

The rule is, as one would expect, a tad vague. It's not just registered. Here it is straight from National OA... "50% of the ACTIVE youth troop members MUST be present at the election. An active member is to be determined by the Scoutmaster. He must be at least a currently registered member of the Boy Scouts of America." It is up to the SM to determine what constitutes active. An SM I worked with recently defined "active" as being at summer camp, using the logic that a scout could only be truly active in scouts if they attended summer camp. 50% of the registered members of the troop were there anyway, but I thought it was an interesting proposition. Vicki

With the exception of the SM veto process, Shawnee follows National's election procedures as Neil described them. I know this having subbed for the SM (at the SM's request). Vicki

ursus, you're excused, thanks! Vicki

ursus, I didn't say when #2 son did his Ordeal, or even that he was one of the scouts going for Brotherhood (which he is). So I'm not quite sure how you jumped to that conclusion. One did his Ordeal at the Fall Reunion in 07, the other at the Spring Conclave in 08. So, yes, both will be eligible at the 09 Spring Conclave. Have to say I wish you'd asked that question rather than assume I didn't know what I was talking about. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Well, not to turn this thread into old-home week, but the Reunion at S-F was great! Perfect weather. I got called out with #1 son awhile back (he, unfortunately, didn't want to continue) and did Brotherhood the same weekend #2 son did his Ordeal. Now I have the privilege of being the troop OA advisor (er?-never can remember). #2 son's troop has a terrible Brotherhood conversion - we now have two scouts who will hopefully attain Brotherhood at the Spring Conclave because they've had fun at OA events. There's another thread going about the openness of the OA ceremonies to parents, religious folks, etc. - Shawnee apparently comes out pretty much ahead on that front. So I think it's a matter of scale and what's important in the grand scheme of things. While the SM can veto the selection (and, with Scouter760, I see the logic) I've never heard of one doing it - which means either it isn't happening, or there's a tremendous amount of discretion out there. But, Scouter760, I guess I'm wondering what prompted the question? Vicki

Well, as always, learning happens. John, I hope you weren't implying that I thought obsolete language was helpful? That's not what I said, but I realize e-mail is sometimes not as clear as personal contact. I assumed that these parents had asked the OA troop rep, who got with the lodge chief, who, if he didn't have a pat answer, consulted with the lodge adult advisor. If I get a moment, I may have to try to validate/invalidate that assumption. Obviously my lodge reads the language on the side of openness. I have noted many positives about Shawnee lodge when I've had the opportunity to compare - I guess this is another one. Vicki

I was mulling this question as I attended our OA Fall Reunion this weekend - I'm told it's one of the largest nationally. Maybe observed a little sharper than I usually do. There were parents there - most just hanging out, but there were a couple at the Ordeal induction I attended, and I noticed others here and there in the lineups I saw heading for ceremonies. With that said, when we went out of council this year to South Carolina, I noticed the old language about no one allowed to attend ceremonies except Arrowmen in their camp manual - when I asked, I was told that I should know camp manuals are always out of date. Some of the MB descriptions were WAY out of date. This sort of thing doesn't help our image, nor assuage the concerns of folks like Doc. I also thought some about trust, not something I give lightly. The leaders I've been privileged to serve with in a couple of troops, and the leaders I've met through staffing adult leader training and WB, are people that I've gotten to know pretty well. But I've also taken the time to get to know them, get to know the process, and not jump to conclusions about underlying motives. Just a couple of observations after a weekend in the woods. Vicki