Venividi

Perhaps they were a political statement about the the Vietnam era movie, "The Green Beret's"?

Troop and patrol meetings should not be spectator sports. Adults often unknowingly affect the boys just by being in the same room. With no specific job or role to fill, it is natural that they will start to have conversations among themselves, not realizing that their conversations contribute to noise leves in the room and are distracting. Suggestion: Have a discussion with the PLC about this. You should be able to ask questions that will help them realize that they could have better meetings without a lot of adult distractions going on in the room. Once they get to that realization, support the SPL in going to a troop committee meeting and requesting that all non-leader adults find a different room in which to meet while troop meetings are in progress.

Old guy, I took a look at the fishing MB requirements, and see that there are a lot of "discuss" and "explain" requirements. How I approach those requirements is similar to dg98's statement. Discussing is a back and forth conversation. It is not a sit and listen while the MB counsellor explains; it is not a sit and listen while the MB counsellor discusses it with another scout. To effectively have a discussion for the requirements that I see in the fishing mb list, you need a very small group. Otherwise there just isn't enough there for a scout in a larger group to add to a discussion other than to repeat what other scouts have said. For explain requirements, I would look for the scout's explanation to be of similar nature to what is included in the MB booklet. If a scout offers a short explanation that isn't similar to what is in the MB book, I ask questions to see if the scout can provide that additional information. If he can't, then he is given the opportunity to go home and research, and then call to make another appointment when he is ready. Another tip for a new counsellor - sometimes boys will come with a completed MB worksheet and hand it to you, expecting that having it written or printed on a form meets the requirement. I thank the scout, set the paper aside, and proceed with starting a discussion, or asking for explantion, as appropriate for the requirement.(This message has been edited by venividi)

Old_Guy, Welcome! You might start by reading the counsellor guide and training material for MB counselors: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/trainingmodules/meritbadgecounselorinstructorsguide.aspx http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/MBCounselorGuide.aspx MB pamphlets are a useful resource for scouts. It provides information that helps the scouts meet the requirements. If they have other resource material to use instead, that is fine. You can't require any one to read the MB pamphlet, or any other material. You can encourage them - and if they choose not to, YOU do not have to be the source of the material for them to complete the requirement. by that, I mean be careful about putting yourself in the position where scouts come to you and you hand hold them through every requirement, and you are providing them with the answers in the event that they choose not do the reading/research/work between meetings with the scout. Tell them your expectations, provide some excitement and encouragement, share your knowledge, and let set them free to work on the various requirements. When they are prepared, then they come back to you to show you what they have done, and explain all those explanation/demonstration requirements. Stay aware that your goal is not to make the boys to complete the MB. Don't feel bad if less than half of the scouts complete the badge. This is their badge, their initiative; you are merely a resource for them.(This message has been edited by venividi)

I can't gather from dfolson's post what this scout is like, what he did or didn't do, what the culture of the committee and BOR participants are, the SM's personality and style, any more than any one else can from the distance of a forum description and request for feedback. Those in the unit know these things best. Those in the unit know what they want scouts to get out of their experience with the troop. I agree with those that say take a neutral position, listen, and help the unit move to become better in the long term implementation of their vision. I tend to have a different view from those that think that it is not acceptable for a BOR to tell a scout that he is not yet ready to advance. From my viewpoint, one of the worst tricks that adults can play on a boy is to tell him "congratulations! you met all the requirements of [insert rank here], when they don't believe it, and it is apparent that he hasn't. The scouts understand which of their peers make effort and which don't try. They won't say anything, but they recognize any hypocracy when actions of adults speak differently than their words. (Note: this is a general comment related to the "a BOR shouldn't do that" responses that have been provided.)

Reminds me of a similar situation a month after my son joined a troop. A patrol of 3rd year scouts forgot to buy their food (the grubmaster forgot, PL didn't follow up to check on duty roster assignments, rest of patrol didn't think about it). Shortly after breakfast on Saturday morning, after missing cracker barrel and breakfast, the patrol approached the SM, and they arrived at a solution. An ASM took two scouts in to town for grocery shopping. You would think "lesson learned", boys were a hungry for a while, but fessed up to their problem and solved it. However, at the next committee meeting, parents of those patrol members came to the meeting, and led by one vocal Mom, DEMANDED to know what the SM was going to do to GUARANTEE that no grubmaster ever forgot to purchase food again. She was going to send food with her son from now on, because he was hungry. SM explained patrol method, etc, and that was the PL's job, and he could not guarantee they that would never make similar mistakes in the future. This became troop lore for multiple years. It isn't where everything goes right that scouts remember, it is when they mess up and recover that will make the most remembered moments of a scout's campouts. I say kudo's to the SM. He explained it correctly - it was poor planning by the scouts. And I believe he/she made the correct call in not running out for more potatoes. The best lessons are learned through experience, and the scouts will not likely to forget to check with each other that they have food before heading out on future campouts.

If after SM conference there is no apparent remorse, then a suspension to give the unremorseful time to contemplate whether he wants either be part of the troop and live to the scout law, or to drop out of the troop. Then stick to it. You have the safety of the other boys to be concerned about.

Yep - human nature being what it is, you will always get a few scouts and parents that are looking for a way to get an award with the minimum effort possible. While that can work for the number of MB's required, requirements that are signed off, and other items that are ostensibly "objectively" measureable (i.e., either completed or not), there is that pesky scout spirit requirement. Some scouts and parents view that as anything short of being charged with a crime is showing scout spirit - they weren't bad. I once had a parent argue with me that it didn't matter that their scout was uncooperative at scout meetings, because he demonstrated scout spirit at his theater group. A handy reference to living by the scout law is whether they are the example that you want to hold up to the rest of the troop as a role model - be like this guy, he is a credit to his patrol, troop, and community because of x, y, and z. If you are signing off on scout spirit for scouts that are not stepping up to their responsibilities to the troop, the othe scouts learn that example as to what the adult leaders expectations are. And the other scouts in the troop will likely exibit the same behavior. So communicate your expectations, and stick to them. It's hard, but worth it.

Deaf scouter wrote: Scout working on Eagle so really not into planning. I finally stopped doing PLC with him as it was a dead end. ... I'm basically doing the calendar myself with their ideas then gonna teach them how to plan come fall. Deaf Scouter, An obesrvation - it reads like you are giving a bye to your oldest scout because he is working on Eagle. And since he isn't in to planning, you are stepping in and doing it for him (and the other scout that isn't a first year, because he is working on Star). I've got to ask - if a scout cant find the time, and/or doesn't want to step up and help make the troop run, do you feel that he is demonstrating the scout spirit that would be expected of someone that wants to be an Eagle scout? I would suggest having a conversation with this young man about how the troop needs him and his expertice. And ask how he perceives how he is living by the scout oath and law if he is ignoring leading the troop because he would rather work on Eagle requirements. Venividi

OGE, It wasn't intended to be a hijack, and if it came across that way, I appologize that I didn't express myself adequately. And I do not discount the possibility that I misunderstood / misinterpreted the point you were trying to make. My intent was to acknowledge in my response what I believed was your point about including opportunities for practicing scout skills into program throughout the year, irrespective of need for advancement, as I think that is an important (perhaps even the most important) part of this discussion. i.e. - focus on program, not advancement.

TampaT writes: We try to get the older boys to do some of the training for the newbies but they are a distinct minority...the older boys seem less and less interested and it affects camping attendance. Not surprising - advancement focuses on the individual - a "me" type of thing. It doesn't address moving the boys to "we". Questinon TampaT - is this with mixed age patrols or same age patrols? That makes a difference in older boys view of helping teach/train younger boys. Balance in methods.

A goal of FCFY is a bit like a goal of all boys making Eagle. Both are noble goals, but whether they are realistic, and whether they are in the boy's best long term interest is up for debate. BSA provides conflicting goals - 1) FCFY; 2)follow the 4 steps of the advancement method. If a unit chooses FCFY, then as Beavah and others have pointed out, the learning component cannot be done well, because it typically takes longer than 1 or 2 exposures to learn (and I am not talking about "mastery" here, just a scout simply being able to do by himself without coaching). If a unit chooses to follow the 4 steps to advancement, then the learning component places FCFY out of reach for all but the exceptional boys. As an aside, from observation (so by necessity is anecdotal), my experience is that boys in ther first year or two are motivated by awards, even when given for having done an activity without real learning. A culture develops of "did that, don't need to do it again" - which is what OGE is addressing when he states that skills should be included in the program outside of the need for advancement requirements. I found that this culture is difficult to change. As boys age, most are no longer motivated by awards from adults that are of a "did something, here is a patch" variety. And some avoid taking on responsibility or attending high adventures, because they know that they don't have the skills that their badges represent. Easy experiment - volunteer to run a first aid scenario in your district's next Camp-O-Ree. I have - in most units, first aid skills are abysimal. But they made first class in a year.

>But his den leader, who is a great lady, really only has time for the basic program. So no den projects. Hopefully they will be doing Whittlin Chip the next few weeks. But for him it's been slightly frustrating. DLChris, As a new DL, you understand more than most parents the need for parents to help out with den meetings/projects, etc. Perhaps you could encourage and/or work with your son's den leader to put together a schedule for the next year that assigns responisbility for projects and meetings to parents of den meetings on a rotational basis. Accomplishes 3 things: Scouts get more of the activities that they want. Den Leader gets the help needed for a quality den program. Parents become contributing participants in den and pack activities.

I'll play. I'm assuming that you mean that the card was signed by the MB counsellor. When the blue card was not initially signed by the SM? when fraud was involved? So much is situationally dependent, that I doubt it is useful for people to guess or speculate the nature of your situation.(This message has been edited by venividi)

blw - I understand your point. I was referring to the ODL designed boy scout uniform. It is a dated look, though not enough to be considered retro (in my opinion).

I sometimes speculate (only somewhat tongue in cheek), that the real purpose of the uniform is to train boys to be obedient by requiring them to wear the "dorky" looking uniform. They are put in a position where they likely feel self conscious about the uniform because the style is so dated; and learn that it's OK to be different and stand out from the crowd. Perhaps that is how the uniform method advances the character portion of scouting's aims. Multiple threads on this forum provide many reasons why the style of the uniform need not change as fashions continue to change. There are many of us that have fond memories of the current uniform and like that it stays the same. Yet how many of us would willingly wear a basketball uniform from the 70's to go out and play a game with their son (or require their son to wear one also)? For that matter, how many of us wear clothing styles from the 60's, glasses from the 70's, or hair styles from the 80's (except to a costume party)?

> If I had my way I would tell him to find another troop. But that is the easy way out. I disagree - this is not the easy way out, it is the difficult way out. People don't generally want to make waves, and thus let bad behaviour slide. Letting the bad behaviour slide is the easy way out. Support your SM. Inform the scout and parents that you support the SM, the committee supports the SM, and that obviously this is not the right troop for them, because they do not agree with the progam provided by the SM and supported by the committee. And that neither the SM nor the committee wants to change the program in the way that this family wants it to be changed. Follow your instinct. It is the right (even if difficult) thing to do.

Eagle92, I like your suggestion about mentoring PL's. My personal preference would be for a JASM to provide that mentoring.

As 5year said, do the talent survey, or ask around as to who likes to fish. People that like outdoors things such as fishing are likely to want their sons in cub scouts. Then ask that person or persons to coordinate a fishing derby. fallback alternative: Check if there is a fishing club in your area, and contact their president/chair. Some fishing clubs members like to share their knowledge with kids.

I'll offer a different perspective - my conversation with the SPL would be more along the lines of 'next time say "pay attention guys, because you need to learn this stuff because you will need it on a high adventure trip one day." ' I think that promoting learning for advancement is counter productive. People are more likely to learn and retain if they see a need in their every day life or future adventure. So I would start to look at whether the troop might be relying a little too much on the advancement method.

BD - The answer to your question (in my experience anyway), is that if you don't have adults willing to step up and go on campouts, then those same adults are not likely to be willing to step up and mentor scouts in the planning and runing of activities either. If scouts haven't been mentored, they are not going to step up and do things, even if asked, becasue they dont know how, and dont have anyone to help them learn.

> I use it as an opportunity to work on advancement with the scouts that need it,... Second Class - consider making this an opportunity for the boys to work on advancement with the scouts that need it. It provides the PL's and instructors with the opportunity to step up to their responsibilities, when thy would likely prefer to play games.

The first campout after I became SM, the PLC proposed an Unplanned campout - no activites planned, other than patrol meals. March campout after webelos cross over. Cabin camp. Having repeatedly hearing "boys decide", we had a campout with no planned activites. Was a total disaster. Ended up with a lot of disciple problems, because boys became bored and started inventing variations of games that were not scoutlike. Was a learning experience for me - realized that what boys say they want is not necessarily what they do want - in this case I think they preferred to avoid the responsibility of planning a schedule of activities for the weekend. Got smarter too - the next time the PLC proposed a "no planning campout", I said fine - you will be responsible to sign up parents to accompany the trip, because the sM and ASM's would not be attending a campout that did not have scouting activities scheduled. They didn't think that was such a good alternative, and proceeded with planning some scouting activities into the weekend

Thank you twocubdad. I tried twice to compose a response that conveyed the meaning that you succinctly put into yours. All volunteers need to work towards achieving the vision of the troop in a "we're all in this together" kind of a way.

Beavah writes: I think it's just fine if yeh have a sit-down with the CC and the SM and yourself and express your concerns. That sort of thing needs to be voiced, eh? Folks sometimes need the push-back to help 'em suit up for the game and resist the parents who are pushing. I think this point should be emphasised. Units need frequent communication between the adult leaders to: a) keep everybody on the same page b) teach new adult leaders the expectations of the troop c) give the SM warm fuzzies/comfort level that the ASM's and committee members support meaningful expectations; i.e., he/she has their support and agreement d) etc. Also, units also need frequent meetings with parents to convey this to parents and explain the troop's vision. It is hard to tell from afar based on the limited info available why/how the current situation evolved to it's current state. Given that these families are leaving, the quickest and easiest thing to do sign and wish them on their way. As everyone has a limited amount of time, I can see where a SM would see his time would be better spent on other issues. Sign and send them on their way, and focus on working with those that are staying. They are now someone else's problem. On a hypothetical note: If they had been staying, what I would do as SM would be dependent on previous history with these particular ASM's. If they normally are assets to the troop, I would remind them that I as SM have not approved parents signing off on their own children's requirements, then talk with the boys about expectations. If these ASM's have continued to ignore my instructions, and/or consistently appear to be most interested in their own son's advancement I would ask them to resign for the good of the troop. I would also discuss with them why they chose to skip the troop event for an independent camping trip - I'ld want to understand the reasons. Others may approach it differently.