Venividi

>>Eagle Scouts that slipped in the back door at the last minute, one that ripped off the ASM's home about a month after receiving the high honor, one that denied God before getting it, one that ripped off his fellow Scouts/ers at a Camporee and a few that just didn't seem to measure up.

"How much of the pack meeting am I responsible for planning?" Everything is subject to negotiation, but use the cubscout leaders handbook and the monthly program planning helps as a guide. Other resources are other CMs that you meet at round table, and cub leader training events. Here is one possible scenario based on our packs culture that had developed over time. The pack meeting with pinewood derby: a PW derby subcommittee should be responsible for organizing, setting up, and running. CM serves as MC. (In our pack, Webelos-2 parents were responsible for the PW derby - everything from soup to nuts). B&G - CM responsible for program for recognizing rank advancements and volunteers, and serves as MC. B&G committee responsible for reserving a site(if different than the normal pack meeting site), decorations, meals/refreshments, hiring and paying for special speaker/entertainer, if any. CM may want to pass on names of desired speakers to the subcommittee, or volunteer to reserve the speaker. CM gets/makes fun type recognition gifts to present to leaders of various activities - (cub scout literature is full of these types of awards). Making such awards could be delegated, but as a former CM, recognizing others was my favorite part of B&G. Advancement Chair - update records and get the appropriate scout badges /awards to give out. Note: This should be a part of every meeting, with the CM preparing some fun way of presenting the awards (example: Oct pack meeting I dressed as a mad scientist, and pulled awards from a black pot that had some dry ice and water in it - had a funny scripted banter with my ASM to lead into it). Our DL's and scouts typically targeted B&G for completing all requirments for badges, - in our pack only a few scouts completed requirements soon enough to be awarded their badge earlier than B&G. A theme I recall: Magic was the BSA specified theme. For the pack meeting, we had a magic show, where each den performed a magic trick. Dens practiced magic tricks at den meetings in preparation for the pack meeting. Overall Planning: CM would take the lead on preparing an annual plan. We did a plan for 18 months out - September of this year through December of the following year, and then presented to the committeee and den leaders. Much of each year looked the same: Christmas party was always in December, and was the responsibility of the Wolf parents. PW-derby always in January, and was the responsibility of the Sr Webelos parents. For months that didn't have a traditional standing activity, we usually used one of the monthly themes - used the BSA provided program helps showing exactly how to set up a fun pack meeting. In summer, we would have activities such as a pack bike ride, a pack fishing derby, etc., each assigned to sub committees (typically 1 to 3 people - most individual activities aren't all that difficult to plan and run, and are a nice, consice item to ask an individual to take on - it has an end date, so not so scary to volunteer for. Pack Meeting Plans: CM prepares a high level plan for each meeting that includes the following items: Set up: assigned to a den responsible for the month Opening ceremony: ditto Awards: CM (I would meet with my ACM beforehand to prepare something in keeping with the theme for the meeting). Skit: assigned to a den in advance Program: - could be activities planned by CM as outlined in the program helps, and then delegated to select parents; or a speaker such as a fireman that brought his firetruck, etc. A Run-on (short skit): assigned to a den in advance Closing - retiring of the colors: assigned to a den in advance Goal: All dens have a part in each pack meeting Before the start of every year, prepare a spreadsheet showing each month, and which den is responsible for each activity, and rotate them through the year, so each den gets a chance to do everything. Then den leaders can plan appropriate meetings for their den to practice flag etiquette, or a skit, etc. in prepartion of the pack meeting. You may need to add more skits each month if you have a lot of dens - the scouts love to do skits. Toss in a skit done by the den leaders once in a while - The kids love to see their leaders up having fun. There are collections of short skits all over the web, many linked from scouter.com, I believe. I highly encourage you to start using the themes and program helps, if you are not already. After some additional experience, you may run across some other material to supplement, then involve parent volunteers in the program. I think you will find this consumes sufficient amount of time that you will want to continue to push the committee chair to recruit and provide the support you need.

SpongeBob, All potential actions have advantages and disadvantages. Don't beat yourself up about what you did in the past, and about anyone's feelings that may have inadvertantly gotten hurt. What is important is what to do going forward. First, definately go talk with your committee chair. Explain why you did what you did, and extend appology if that encroached on what the CC thought she was supposed to do. Then set up periodic meetings and or calls with the CC above and beyond the monthly committee meeting. Maybe a standing call every Sunday night where you tell the CC what support you need from the committee, and ask the CC to get back to you with status in an appropriate time frame (could be next committee meeting, next phone call, or next night, depending on your need and the CC willingness to accomplish what you what you need.) Specific to the complaint about the event for which you distributed flyers to all of the pack leaders, but they neglected to pass the message on, - stand firm - you are CM, and provided the appropriate info to the DL's, and it was THEIR responsibility to follow up with their boys, not yours. Leading a cub pack is a team activity. Each player needs to do their part. What you should do now is to use this as a learning experience for all the parents - you are the cub master. You pass information to den leaders. You will NOT be taking the responsibility to assure that each den leader uses that information - the DL is perfectly capable of doing so without you being a micromanager. You could give the suggestion that the DL appoint a parent of one of their scouts to be the follow up person for their den, if they so choose, but it is not a CM role to tell a DL how they must distribute information. If you step in and start to do so, because of a few complaints, you may perhaps benefit a few in the short run, but in the long run, you are making the pack weaker rather than stronger, and I encourage you to look towards the long term because the pack needs to outlive you, and it will be tough for that to happen if nothing gets done without you doing it. I am a new unit commissioner, and one of my packs has developed a great culture of parent involvement. They do a lot via email, and kindly copy me. Any request that I see sent out by the CM or CC gets a number of favorable responses. If your pack isn't there yet, then you may want to consider an all parents meeting, where you and the CC tell the parents your plan for the next year to 18 months - i.e., what you are planning for pack meetings over that time; then ask for vounteers, and thirdly assign families that dont volunteer to an activity. Make note that cub scouting is a family activity, and (while this may sound harsh), explain that family whose idea of participation is to slow down their car while they drop their son off - invite them to enroll their son in baseball or soccer instead. There should be multiple sub committees of your committee - B&G, PW derby, August family campout, June fishing derby, etc. Then let the CC birddog those committees to deliver. If you have weekly calls with the CC, then you should see a report from the B&G at the December and January committee meetings, because you have asked for it to be there. If it isn't, then raise the topic during the "new business" portion of the meeting. It will take time to get there, but once parents see that it isn't 4 people doing all the work, they won't be quite so scared to pitch in. Definately share what you get at round table with the CC and DL's that didn't attend. Then let them take any appropriate steps for those things that they should be responsible for, just as you will take appropriate steps for items you bring back from round table that you as CM are responsible for. Sometimes, you will need to have the conversation with the CC as to whom should do what - and don't be afraid to ask for assistance. good luck. And keep repeating to yourself that doing everything yourself is bad for the pack. Perhaps some activities don't come off as well as you think they could have if the sub committee had done some more advanced planning - note it as a suggestion for improvement next year, and move on. Baby steps are more effective than giant leaps. The scouts may not even realize that there is a problem with, for example, only having cake because the B&G committee didn't begin planning soon enough to make arrangements for chicken.

>> There is a raging...well really battle ...>I personally have no dogs in this fight, but since both people came to me to vent I would like to be properly educated

"to show your CO that you are delivering results" I suspect this didn't come out with the meaning intended, but I do hope that producing Eagles isn't a way to show the CO the troop is delivering results. I think that adds pressure onto advancement as an objective rather than as a method. Scout doesn't have proper badges sewn on? I have used that as an opportunity to sit down with a scout for one on one time at a campout to have him sew on the badge. A needle, thread, and a little time, and I got to convey to a scout that attention to such detail is part of scout spirit. Eagle..So What? - I agree. Even scouters get sidetracked into Eagles becoming an objective rather than a method, and can get caught up in recognizing and rewarding scouts that earn the right number of merit badges and wear a POR patch, rather than recognizing those that are too busy contributing to troop success by helping others, and truely exhibit the traits we like to think of when we think of Eagle.

Oh, one more thing. I like your story of the scouts choosing to eat raman noodles dry rather than heat up water. I can relate to that. Our scouts would typically plan on donuts for Sunday morning breakfast in order to avoid cooking. Saturday breakfast was typically breakfast burritos once they learned that cleanup was a lot easier. And I could see our scouts eating dry raman noodles if someone had thought of it. But for summer camp, patrol cooking typically was only an issue for the first year scouts.

SR540Beaver, I hope the referenced comment wasn't preceived as disparaging. It wasn't meant that way. I do believe that cultures develop in groups over time. Our troop attended the same summer camp Gonzo1 mentions. At the end of the week, they are all upbeat and happy and want to go back. They had fun. And we saw it carry over to weekend campouts. When I first started with the troop after my son crossed over, I was impressed with the scout's meals. They often ate as good as the adults, with dinners such cornish game hens, baked potatos and sweet corn baked in a dutch oven, lasagna, etc. My son's new scout patrol wanted to make hotdogs and burgers, but over time, they learned and moved up to better meals. The culture of the troop was a big part of that, and the week of cooking at summer camp contributed to that by putting them in a position to really learn the skills required. Again, I reiterate that this isn't the only way, but it was what we found to be most effective for us. A related story: Our troop used the woodburning stoves supplied by the camp rather than propane stoves, which added some additional challenge and need for teamwork. We had one patrol of mostly 3rd year scouts that took pride in a week of cooking using only one match per day for lighting the fire in their stove, using embers remaining from the previous meal to start their lunch and dinner fire. Especially after other patrols switched to the gas stoves after a heavy rainfall made lighting wood difficult.

SR540beaver, I will take a stab at responding to your questions: >>Boys do this within their patrol on every campout they go on thru the year. What is to be gained additionally by doing it for a week at summer camp? >How is it going to strengthen their patrol bond by cooking or doing KP an additional week out of the year. >Most boys want and expect their summer camp experience to be different from their monthly outing. Not sure I understand this comment. Summer camp is different than monthly outings even if they spend some of their time cooking. >>They want it to be the cherry on top.That means getting to do scouting activities without a lot of the additional busy work.

Gonzo1, Yes, our council's OA does offer the ordeal at summer camp. They also offer two OA weekends; one in Spring and one if Fall. I certainly see your point - convenience and expediency vs. making the effort to schedule the OA weekend into ones schedule. I don't know the reason, since it has been that way as long as I am aware. Perhaps it was offered to encourage more troops to attend the council camp, since many troops prefer to go out of council to avoid patrol cooking.

local1400 You just jogged a memory of summer camp about 10 years ago. At our patrol cooking summer camp, scouts could (were expected to) invite staff members to dinner, cooked by their patrol. Each staff member wore a totem, and gave it to the first scout that invited him/her. (The staff members got their totems back at dinner). One day one of our scouts got the idea to invite as many staff members as possible to dinner that night. Probably collected a over a dozen totems. Unfortunately, it was the night of the campout for wilderness MB, and OA ordeal overnight. Most of the troop were on one of these, including the scout that had done the inviting. He almost missed his ordeal overnight to keep his commitment to all the staff that he had invited for dinner. The staff members sent him on his way. As there were more staff in our camp than there were scouts, the staff helped the scouts prepare dinner. There was some great bonding going on that night.

The brothers being Eagle scouts adds a nice bit of info to the article, but personnaly I wouldn't draw the conclusion that any article that didn't include it was due to the press being "liberal" - which in the context of the response comes across as perjorative. Perhaps that reporter had a length limit for the article and was at that limit; or the reporter didn't think to ask about any scouting related background, or any number of other reasons. I don't see anything to be gained by assuming that it was due to a "liberal" press.

I am in agreement with all those that stated that it would be difficult to show leadership in a blood drive. Perhaps not impossible, but really, really, difficult, and the scout would have to describe how he would be leading such a project. My thoughts are on a different aspect here: Eagle 1984 said "The Eagle even went as far as saying that council needs to start a list of acceptable/unacceptable projects for the rank of Eagle.". My thoughts on this is that scouting is best done at the local level, and it should be the unit that is the primary determiner of what type of project adequately demonstrates leadership for a particular individual. Council is too far removed. It sounds to me like the scout and is father are looking for a project with the least effort possible. If a particular unit's standards are such that minimal efforts are encouraged, then, while from my perspective that is unfortunate, they will approve such a project. I believe that what the council and district should be involved with is providing training to local unit leaders to help them understand the benefits of meaningful standards for things like Eagle projects, so they can make better decisions on what type of project meets the aims of scouting.

Some suggestions to try if you haven't already: Have the PLC run a skills based competition during the inter-patrol competition portion of each meeting. Younger scouts will take pride in beating older scouts that never learned the skills well, and losing to younger scouts can motivate the older ones to practice again. (from your post, I am reading between the lines that your patrols are divided mainly on age). Ask the oldest level scouts to plan some major activity for the next campout, thereby creating an opportunity for the mid age scouts to teach the younger (question - do you have teaching assigned to scouts with the position of Instructor?) For instance, have oldest scouts plan a disaster scenario such as a car running into a group of pedestrians, which they will set up and run at the next campout. The remainder of the troop spends those same troop meetings learning and practicing first aid skills. Older scouts can be learning about moulage, making fake blood, learning how to make skin appear burnt, etc. Agree with SWScouter on differing levels of instruction. OGE & jr56 are correct in having the scouts be responsible for their own plan and list of things they want to do. I would add the comment that if they have become complacent to the point that they come to meetings and sit in the corner and kibbitz, you may have a difficult time getting them to come up with any other ideas that gets them out of that habit. You may need to through down the gauntlet of a challenge: "I heard that Troop X scouts went on a 100 mile bike ride. If you can do exceed that by June, the troop committee will have everyone over for homemade pizza" or something similar.

Hunt, I know this was a hypothetical response, and hypothetcial responses can go places not intended, but I also have difficulty with the potential response of: "Billy, I think you should be aware that it's very difficult to get boys in the troop to help on an Eagle project for a scout who isn't pulling his weight in the troop. I would really hate for you to schedule work days and have nobody show up..." In addition to Semper's observation, I would add: 1)I don't see such a response from a scoutmaster as being completely honest. It is not the ability to recruit workers that is the issue, it is the scout's unwillingness to show scout spirit. 2) It is a rare kid that wouldn't be able to find a few friends and family members to help on his project. So when it is completed, the SM has herself/himself into a corner. That said, I think I know what you were trying to get at: suggesting that in a conference it may help to provide some examples of how his attitude will directly affect him. Am I right?

>>Scouting is not in your everyday life!

Just an observation, but I think the bickering is much more about "winning" and "losing" than it is about individual prefers for particular menu items. I once saw a patrol arguing about menu items where the most vocal scout in the patrol wasn't even going to attend the campout. Sounds like no one is emerging as a leader of the patrol, or the patrol leader doesn't yet have the skills or self confidence to make the final decision. Some possible things to consider: - A conference with the patrol leader to teach some additional leadership skills specific to decision making in a group when consensus cannot be reached. (sounds like the PL has turned over his responsibility as leader to the group). - A conference with the older scouts that you mentioned, asking them to step in as leader of the menu planning, (whether formally as a PL or troop guide, or informally, as the older scout that the others look up to and respect.) - Provide a limited selection menu choices for the next several months. I found this beneficial to new scout patrols. I like your idea of asking the PLC to come up with the short list of menu choices. - Its not clear from your post if you have multiple patrols, but if one patrol is completing their planning on time, they can move on to a fun activity, while the other patrols complete their planning. I also like the other suggestions provided by others already, especially the head cook for the patrol being given the final say in the menu.

Good Ole Buff, I suspect that you have answered your own question. As you are closest to the scout, ultimately the decision is yours. From your description, he is good with "honesty". Sounds like you will be wanting to have additional conversations about what you expect to see with respect to scout spirit; and give him the opportunity to describe how he has demonstrated the rest of the points of the scout law. For example, how does he see how he shows loyalty to his troop and patrol when he doesn't attend. Perhaps he was very loyal to his patrol when he was active (or perhaps not). Perhaps there are other groups/organizations to whom he is showing loyalty now. Demonstrate that you are a caring leader that wants to support his goal to EARN Eagle, and that you are not a "gatekeeper" keeping unqualified people out, but that doesn't mean you are a doormat, allowing people to walk over you. These are difficult- best of luck to you.

CalicoPenn, I agree with you when looking just at the point of a scout not being able to express himself at a BOR. I also read Lisabob's post several times before responding, and focused more on the points of the comments he had made to other scouts about getting Eagle, and her view of the scout's general attitude. I do see those as elements of scout spirit. Also, I considered the degree of insight and levelheadedness that I have seen in Lisabob's typical postings - I don't think that she would have been concerned, nor brought up this issue here, if she thought for one tiny bit that the scout's problem was one of having difficulty with articulation in front of a BOR. The broad impression that I took was that the scout's inarticulation was due to his being uncomfortable with what he had achieved as a star scout, rather than due to being good in practice but not comfortable with expressing himself. Granted, I could be drawing the wrong picture in my mind. I also don't like to focus on "what should have been done". The scout is a life scout, end of story. I hope my posting reflected more on looking at lessons learned, and what should be done to improve as scouters in the future. For this particular scout, if my impression of him from Lisabob's posting is correct, he will likely need a large amount of time with explanation of firm expectations; and be provided with lots of feedback and mentoring between now and an Eagle SM conference and subsequent Eagle BOR. That would help make him an Eagle on the inside, where it counts. If your impression is the more accurate one, then yes, I agree with you that face time in front of groups will be beneficial to him, and it is an easier problem all around.

Thanks, Beavah and Hunt. One quibble (or clarifcation) on >>the SM will have to be the gatekeeper for the next stage

Gotta agree with you on your view of MB's. For last 10 years I have been counsellor for first aid, skiing (now snow sports), gardening, and animal science. Had a lot of customers for first aid my first year. Then the scouts found it was available at summer camp, and prefer to do it there. Less effort on their part to attend class at summer camp. Last year I did finish up with a scout that had taken first aid at summer camp, but didn't have record of what he completed. I found that he had retained little. Had two customers for skiing. Also had two parents call and ask if I would sign off on the MB for their son, because he had gone on a ski trip. Had one customer for gardening. Not too many vegetable gardens in town, but a lot of families do have nice flower gardens. Had one customer for animal science (my son). Though we are near agricultural land, it doesn't appear that there are many farm kids in area scout troops. We didn't have any in our troop. The four troops in our town got together and had a MB night, where counsellors were given the opportunity to promote their MB's. I thought it was worthwhile, even though for me was the result of the two parents calling about the skiing MB.

Lisabob, I see four interrelated items here: 1) what is best to help the individual scout 2) impact on the troop as a whole 3) the integrity of the adults to stand up for what they believe 4) perceptions/reality of what district/council/national will allow. Addressing #4 first: Don't worry what district/council/national would do. The unit scouters know the needs of their unit and individuals in their unit better than anyone else. You have responsibility for the individuals. The higher levels have different objectives because their responsiblity if for a larger program, and they do not know the individual. If it comes to appeal, tell the scout how to do it, and let it happen. It is no reflection on your program. #1): I had a similar situation when I was a scoutmaster - this is a SM perspective, but I think their are parallels to your BOR committee. When I was a new SM, I had a scout soley focused on advancing to Eagle. He saw scout spirit as a "gimme", and the merit badges and other requirements as the hoops to jump through. After SM conferences for first class and star, I discussed with him what I wanted him to work on with respect to improving scout spirit; things like helping his patrol, etc. He did not change - he had no incentive for him to change because he was getting what he wanted - rank advancement. #2) Impact on the rest of the troop. At SM conferences with other scouts, one of them told me they thought advancement was a joke because the least scout-like individual was advancing faster than anyone else. This confirmed something I had seen when rank advancements were annouced. Other scouts would get real applause; for this one there would be a hesitation, and then some polite applause. My interpretation: the scouts knew what was going on - They saw advancement as an adult controlled game over which they had no control, and thereby discounted the value of the advancement method. It also became a race to the bottom: why would other scouts put effort into doing their best at scouting when the adults obviously put no value on it, as evidenced by their advancment of scouts that put no effort into their scouting responsibilities. #3) If you don't think that a scout is ready to advance, then don't approve the advancement. Back to my example: the father of my troublesome scout was the troop's advancement chair. As I was a new SM, he gave me the advice that sometimes you have to grit your teeth and advance scouts that you don't think deserved it. That weighed heavily on me, but I went along with it. It reflected advice seen in the scouting message boards that advancement should not be denied, because national would overturn on appeal anyway. After I got seasoned, I held higher standards for scout spirit. When scouts understood that they would not get the reward of rank advancement without being helpful, fulfilling the responsibilities of their POR, etc., the rest of the troop started putting more effort into them, because they knew it was expected. The troop as a whole got better as a result. What to do: Set up a meeting among the advancement committee and the scoutmaster. Discuss the issues you see with this scout. Explain how the BOR viewed him, including the specific examples you shared with the scout, and get his perspective. You may find that he has the same view, and similar to your BOR, thought he needed to advance him anyway because it was expected, he had completed the correct number of merit badges, and the requisite time in rank. Gain his agreement that he will not send him back for a BOR for the Eagle rank if his scout spirit does not improve to the level that you are expecting. He can then have SM conferences with him as often as necessary to make sure he understands that the scout spirit requirement will no longer be pencil-whipped. I don't know your SM, but speaking from my experience, it would be very helpful to know that the advancement committee supported a meaningful interpretation of scout spirit. Once we were all on the same page of expectations, things improved. How to encourage the scouts that have such a view: my experience says that such encouragement will be ignored if the scout is getting what he wants. Advancement is not a club to be used, but rather an incentive of a golden ring there for his taking when he meets the requirements. If "scout spirit" has become an empty requirement, then the incentive to live up to the ideals of the scout oath and law has been removed. Your last paragraph questioning whether the behavior would still pass muster in a BOR for Eagle. My experience is "yes it will", if the adults do not come together and have meaningful expectations. Don't pass off responsibility of holding to meaningful but achievable expectations for scout spirit to the district. That is a unit responsibility, not a district responsibility. Hope this helps. Venividi

I occasionally hear about adults not finishing Eagle and regretting it. I am not sure I understand the level of regret, and what the impact of the regret is later in life. This may be because I wasn't a scout when I was a youth, but I suspect that the "regret" is rather wishful thinking on the order of regretting not having stayed with piano lessons. Sure, it would have been nice, but was it a life changing decision? Everyone has a pile of things they regret (or could regret), but I think that is a misdirected focus. Those that didn't earn Eagle may just well be superior to those that did, because they developed their character through other interests, or later in life. I recall my first year as a cubmaster, reviewing applications for a dozen new tiger scouts. Half the applications reflected they had a parent that was a Life or Eagle scout. I thought recruitment of help would be easy, because these certainly were fathers that recognized the value of scouting, that would willingly be helpful because they had developed character traits embodied in the scout oath and law. Every one of these fathers turned down multiple requests for assistance. I am sure this has colored my view on the topic, but I have to say that I just don't see a coorelation between having been awarded an Eagle and contribution to community later in life. I think a big part of that is embodied in Eamonn's post - the awarding of Eagle rank to individuals that the other scouts look at and surmise that Eagle isn't worth aiming for if they give it to him. And earning Eagle because of parental pressure. I think both of these contribute to seeing Eagle as a series of individual checklist items to be accomplished, rather than as a reflection of the character outlined in the scout oath and law. So I too cheer those that become great citizens without choosing to complete requirements for Eagle. I think they have their heads on straight, and perhaps understand and have a better perspective that adults.

"Or is leadership assumed based on him meeting the requirements of his job as Instructor?" As others have said, replace "leadership" with "responsibility". Then look at what he did in responsibility, in the context of what the troop committee is trying to achieve with respect to aims of character & citizenship. If SPL asked him to come each week prepared to teach a specific skill, and he did, bringing needed supplies with him, likely he is spot on. If SPL asked him only occasionally to teach something, and he did nothing else on his own, that is the other end of the spectrum. If your troop committee's view of scoutings aims is that "do no more than what you are told, and if you aren't told you aren't expected to do anything" is consistent with character & citizenship, then promote him. If if your TC's view is that taking responsibility implies that he has some personal responsibility to fulfill the duties of his position of his own initiative, whether or not there is someone giving him specific tasks each week, then the BOR does something different. And then the committee can give feedback/initiate a discussion with the SM on what is expected of a scout before approving him for a BOR. I really like how Longhaul sums it up: "Building the character of the boy should take precident over advancing the scout."

"Their meetings are OK, but most of the enthusiasm comes more from the female side of the groups." Take a look at a recent high school yearbook. My bet is that pictures of the leaders for the school's clubs & organizations will be mostly female (Organizations such as student council, yearbook committee, National Honor Society, Students Against Drunk Driving, etc., where leaders are elected from volunteer candidates). This seems to have been a trend over the past dozen years or so.

It kinda sorta somewhat depends. One can seed the Jr Leaders with ideas, teach them how to create and follow an agenda, call them to check on their plans, and still end with the Jr Leaders coming to meetings without having put in effort to create an agenda or be prepared for the meeting. I have seen and experienced success with many jr leaders, but have seen and experienced others that despite all support, still came to meetings unprepared. The most noteable was a SPL that had no interest in the postion, but ran for office only because his parents wanted him to run.