Venividi

Because people like you are destroying the country we love! Our country is great because of the diversity of opinions, not in spite of it. It builds, not destroys. Religions are stronger because they have to communicate their worth. Contrast with much of Europe, where there are religions supported by the state, yet low church attendance and low percentage of people identifying themselves as religous. While I do not like Merlyn's style, which I consider abrasive, I can say the same for several others as well. So despite the abrasiveness, I think it beneficial to have a differing viewpoint offered here.

I see that the diversion of the discussion from displays in public parks to statements on currency was successful.

Eagle732, My recommendation would be to stay away from monetary rewards. I think it takes away from identifying "honor", self-pride, and internal motivation. I would also hesitate at winning patrol assigning tasks to other patrols - 3 reasons come to mind: 1) the SPL should be working with the PLC to make sure all tasks are covered and distributed fairly, 2)it perpetuates chores as something to be avoided and have someone else do, rather than as something necessary that everyone has to share, and 3)the new scout patrol will likely lose more often, and therefore will be getting assigned unpleasant tasks by the older scouts. I do like your traveling trophy idea; its a great idea. I like eolesen's beat up camp cup, because it has developed special meaning within the troop. 20 years from now, scouts will fondly remember the quest for that old cup. They will not remember an extra $10 in their scout account.

If the District Advancement committee approves, why not? In our district, the district advancement committee relies on the units to vett Eagle projects. Had a talk with the district advancement chair, who said they did not want to be positioned as the "bad guy" that says no. With the rare occasion of a proposed routine labor projects such as picking up litter along roads and trails, the district advancement committee supports any project that the a unit believes to sufficiently demonstrate leadership to unit standards.

Funscout, I think you said it well with: (generally, or at least so they claim) Political parties are marketing experts, because it works. Drape your party in the flag, and make the other party out to be the ruin of the country, all with broad brush sound bites and marketing slogans. Make some claims, and make them often enough so that they become truisms, whether in fact or perception. Both parties have shown their desire to spend money. Constituents demand it - whether it is paid for by taxes today, or borrowed and the debt given to our children. Advantages and disadvantages to each method, and which is better/worse depends on point of view.

Advisor Greg, If you receive a statement that is well written, it will be easy to recognize. If the statement looks to you like not much thought was put into it, ask the scout about it, ask some open ended questions to get him to think and respond. Then ask him if he thinks he could do a better job if he added some of the additional things that he just talked about with you. And then let him. venividi

"Who are we to judge whether a family event or a boob tube extravaganza is a "valid excuse"? " The Scoutmaster, who should consider such things in helping a boy grow in character and citizenship? Who, under current BSA structure, is charged with signing off on scout spirit for each rank? Who is expected to guide SPL's and PL's in leading the troop/patrol?

eoleson, I dont see anything wrong with your approach, if that is consistent with what you are trying to achieve with your scouts. I also do not see anything wrong with the approach of others that take a different approach, which is consistent with their aims for scouts in their units. I still recall, after many, many years, a jr high school english teacher that during the first day of class informed us all that he would not accept any homework assignments turned in late. During the first couple of weeks, a few students tried to turn in late papers, with excuses as to why they were late. Didn't matter. It didn't take long and everyone turned in assignments on time. This was not true for other teachers in other classes - same students turned in homework late. Our english teacher wanted to teach subject matter skills, but he also wanted to teach more; life skills such as responsibilty. He could have done like the other teachers and only concerned himself with the subject he was teaching, but he chose to take a larger view. And looking back, I know really appreciate what he did for us.

Not sure what would be wrong with a friendly chat between people on the same team to share information and discuss possible changes or adjustments?

>By the time they are STAR or LIFE, by then they find they actually begin to master some or even most of the basic T-1st class skills. I respectfully disagree with this (at least a little bit) in the context of not learning T-2-1 skills due to poor sign-off. My experience was that if scouts did not learn the skills during their T-2-1 journey, some would avoid situations where they would have to use those skills, including opting not to participate in high adventures. Yes, change the process if it is not meeting needs. But help the boy by making sure that he learns the skill(s).

Mollie, Depends on your role in the troop. Assuming that you are SM/ASM/CC/AC, here are some suggestions: >How can we promote Quality Control within Scouting without having to mandate it? How can we get parents to realize that it's not a race to Eagle or the boys to realize that quality COUNTS! Make this a topic at a meeting with SM/ASM's/troop committee, and gain consensus on expectations. Then host a meeting for all parents and communicate those expectations. > I wish all leaders could have the guts to say "That's not quite good enough, Scott. Practice it and try again next week." Not everyone is in the same space, especially if expectations have not been discussed among the leaders. It is quite possible that those leaders believe that if they said something such as that, they would not be supported by the other leaders. For first aid MB (or any other MB that you believe is being treated as a "gimme"): Dont approve the camp counsellor as MB counsellor for the badge. Rather, give the scouts the name of the MB cousellor that you want them to use.

did a bad job on proof reading my previous post. This one will make more sense: Advancement is like other measures that can become more important than what it is supposed to measure. For example, year over year quarterly profit growth is one useful measure of a healthy growing company. Tie compensation to it, and the measure gets managed as an outcome in and of itself, regardless of whether it is "healthy" growth. Advancement in scouts should be a natural outcome of program. But tie undue value to the measure and it becomes all to easy for advancement, rather than growth in character, citizenship & fitness, to be what gets managed. And the result is that the underlying qualities that the awards used to represent are no longer tightly coupled with the award.

Advancement is like other measures can become more important than what is being measured. For example, year over year quarterly profit change is one useful measure of a healthy growing company. Tie compensation to it, and the measure gets managed as an outcome in and of itself, with less importance than healthy growth. Advancement in scouts should be a natural outcome of program. But tie value to the measure (advancement), and it becomes all to easy for the measure to be what gets managed. And then the underlying qualities that the awards used to represent are no longer tightly coupled with the award.

Eamonn, I know that I keyed on just one phrase out of a healthy sized post. Most of your post talked about how you know your scouts and know what they are capable of, and having the scouts demonstrate skills to you. I agree with that and I think it is key. Know the scouts. Have them demonstrate skills to you(aside: is demonstrating different than testing? :-) ). I wanted to step back from process and focus on the expectations, which was why I selected that particular comment. What do we expect of the scouts? Hopefully we expect that they learn not to take short cuts. Your son is a shining example. venividi I agree with you that scouts want to hide things that they can't do. All the more reason to make sure that skills are actually learned. venividi

"Is it the fault of the Scout that someone else didn't do what they were supposed to do? Or didn't do their job? Should the Scout be penalized for something that was beyond his control?" I am not sure that I agree that this is outside the control of a scout. Scouts are smart enough to know when they haven't learned a skill. It is within their control to say "hey, I dont really understand this, can you help me?" or "Mr Johnson, you showed me how to cook, but the requirement says that I should do it." Human nature being what it is, it is not surprising for scouts (or anyone else) to take the easy way and accept a bogus signoff. But isn't developing character where a scout is not satisfied with accepting something that he hasn't earned one of scoutings aims?

Hotdesk, That is wonderful story, though I am sure, bittersweet. My condolences for your loss. You are fortunate to have memories of the great man that your father was. Many people don't have that opportunity. I would like to use your story when needed for recruiting parents. regards, Venividi

Compare this thread with a number of other threads that tell us that a scout can never fail - that if he doesn't satisfactorily fulfill the responsibilities of his position, it is due to the adults not assisting him. If he doesn't know scouting skills, it is because of adults- and don't even suggest that a SM spend more than 15 - 20 minutes at a SM conference to verify that a scout knows scouting skills - a howl of protest will result. Even if a scout chooses not to show up to meetings, it is an adult's fault. As the trend is to move responsibility off of the shoulders of the scouts and placing it on the adults, more total time is required of adults.

Gold Winger - Just training kids to fit in to today's society as adults. In todays world of any problem being someone elses fault, if we train boys to take personal responsibility, they would be looked at as oddities. :-(

Lisabob, I think that sitting across from a scout, and wanting to encourage a scout to do better, SM's, especially new SM's, have a propensity to go along and do as you said. I would like to supplement your post by reminding all that one of the purposes of a BOR is to provide feedback to the SM. When BOR's notice scouts coming to them that cause such head scratching, that is a sign for adults to get together for a discussion to share expectations; to let the SM know that the BOR and committee really do support meaningful expectations of scout spirit, and request some changes. When the majority of feedback to the SM is from parents that are upset that their son was told that his scout spirit needed improvement, such feedback from the BOR would be wonderful. venividi

I will offer some possible (probable?) contributing factors: Unit adults that want to see their scouts succeed, as measured by advancement (personal experience is that adults are more interested in seeing boys advance, while boys, once they reach a level of maturity, are more interested in fun, challenging experiences than in rank advancement). Inexperienced leaders that have not yet learned the value of a man to man talk with a scout, and telling him that he is not yet ready for the next rank. (I was guilty of approving rank advancement for a couple of scouts that didn't live up to a reasonable expectation of scout spirit. Even had a more experienced mentor that told me it was expected). Unit leaders/committee members/parents that have not discussed expectations, visions, etc. Troop culture where scouts do not hold other scouts accountable for their actions, but rather are of the belief that discipline is not their responsibility, but rather, is the responsibility of adults. I am sure there are others.

Welcome nwsscouttrainer. If it hasn't been tried yet, I would suggest a) thorns and roses sessions, b) rewards for good behavior given at a patrol level, c) SM conferences at the individual level, and d) scout spirit as an achievement that must be earned in the same manner as any other requirement.

gwd-scouter, Yours is a wonderful inspiring story. You had to demonsrate much perseverence to influence the troop to move to where it is today. Thanks for focusing on what went right, and sharing the results of your leadership. venividi

JeffD wrote: the one bad thing about this thread, is i think i will need to buy more than 1 DO to be able to have dinner and dessert going besides JeffD, It's a disease. Yes, you will buy more than one DO. In various sizes. And a toolbox to keep all your special DO tools: lid lifters, trivets for the lids, little wisk broom to brush off ash. And spices - Lots and lots of spices. Then comes a DO table (portable is best; mine is made from an old refrigerator door). Then regularly scheduled gatherings with other families with the same disease.

I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised if "retention" is given a different, non-sensical meaning by BSA. Retention, Active, Serve, ... someday there may need to be a special dictionary.

I think that retention rate is based on specific names on a unit's roster last year, and how many of those same names are on the roster this year, not counting those that aged out; i.e., of those that were in the unit last year, how many of those same boys that are eligible for membership this year are still members. Adding new members does not affect the retention rate. Venividi