Venividi

Looks like Stosh, GoldWinger, and Gunny all have differing processes for scheduling conferences, and those processes work for the boys in their respective troops. Vive le difference!

>A lot of SE's don't really want lots of independent-minded COR types >on "their" council boards or pushin' things at an annual meeting. A >lot more pros are really concerned that if the CO's truly understood >the responsibilities and risks they were takin' on, they would drop >their units. And that might be true, eh? But are those the CO's we >really want in the first place? That may be so, but I will offer another possible reason for the lack of participation of CO representatives at the district level. The church that chartered the troop that I worked with chartered the troop as one thing out of many programs. In addition to the troop, this church offered a middle school youth group, high school youth group, senior groups, mens groups, and a whole raft of other community outreach groups. All of them require volunteers that are willing and able to devote their time and energy (not just scouters devote more than an hour a week). The CO is in a position where they have to allocate their limited volunteer resources. And if they view boy scouting as a franchised package that they are able to sponsor, and the unit is not causing them any problems, then the CO's volunteers can be directed towards other programs that may be more heavily dependent on their own resources. I think it is more than just topics such as cold hot dogs that are issues the CO rep doesn't want to spend time with. I think that most CO's are not concerned with whether their scouts have to participate in anti-bullying activities in order to advance to first class, whether active = rostered, and any number of issues more weighty than hot dogs at pinewood derby. I think that basically, the view among many CO's is that they outsourced the scouting program, and happy with "delegating" even major program decisions to the franchisor. As you say, those units that see and use scouting as a major component of their youth program are more likely to devote more of the CO's available volunteer time to overseeing it.

Consider putting your stimulus package towards better food. Buy more milk for the kids. Eat good quality steaks more often. With Idaho (or Maine or Wisconsin) potatos. Along side a pinot noir from Oregon. Or other wine of your choice from upstate New York, California, or wherever. No problem if someone prefers an import to mix things up. The good old American farmer offers products that rank among the best in the world.

I spent Saturday running a first aid scenario at our district's version of a klondike. It was a day full of activity challenges where patrols followed a compass course between challenges. It was a beatiful day, around 30 degrees, with a foot of snow that had fallen the day before. I was surprised at the number of patrols that had an adult tagging along with them (better than half). And most were mixed aged patrols with at least some scouts that were 14 to 16 years old. This was in a relatively small forest preserve where, if a patrol got lost, it might possibly take them up to 5 minutes to stumble upon other humans. Probably less. My thought was what better message could we give scouts than to show them we trust them enough to let them particiapte on their own without adults tagging along. Another thought was that perhaps they were thinking of this as a spectator sport like watching their son play basketball or soccer.(This message has been edited by venividi)

Back in confirmation classes (in a protestant denomination), catholic in early church terms meant 'whole". And that when we recited prayers that included reference to the "catholic church", it meant the whole body of christians, and not Catholic with a capital "C", as a specific denomination whithin chritianity today.

Wow! go away for klondike, and return to see that pot roast is a very popular topic. I do like the analogy. Thank you Bob for starting it. Here are some more. A man liked to make pot roast. He followed a particular recipe, and his 3 pound chuck always turned out to his liking. Another man took the same recipe and found that his 6 pound bottom round did not turn out the same. A woman took the same recipe and found that her 3 pound chuck didn't turn out like man #1's. Upon discussing with others, she found the difference was that she was working with a roast from an aging holstein milk cow, where others were working with young angus steers. Between them, they shared ideas on how to adjust the recipe to turn out a delectable dish. The national association of pot roasting found that there was an underserved area of the country, where meat was not living up to its potential. Many calves in the area were growing up to be juvenile delinqroasts. The association sought out volunteers to help make the most of the potential that was otherwise going to waste. The volunteers found that major parts of the recipe were ineffective with the delinqroasts, and made modifications. The delinqroasts, became perhaps not the best potroasts, but they were much more edible than they otherwise would have been. The national association was pleased. Yet another volunteer chef was having trouble with a particular cut of beef. He followed the prescribed recipe exactly, yet the pot roast always came out mushy. He found a virtual group of other chefs with a wide range of experiences. Over a lengthy discussion, one of the others suggested that this particular cut of beef was a prime rib roast, and it required some special handling. They suggested trying a dry heat roasting recipe as opposed to a pot roasting recipe. Not exactly by the pot roasting book, but the volunteer chef was able to turn that cut of beef into a dish that could be served in a 5 star restaurant. I think it good to remember that in addition to a great recipe, chefs of the right sort are important. Chefs that, through training, desire, experience, and sharing with others are able to develop a knowledge of a particular piece of meat and turn it into a dish that is better than it otherwise was capable of being. A roast with a unique character.

There once was a man that loved pot roast. He grew up eating pot roast. His mother made it often. The pot roast that his mother made was POT ROAST. There was no other. It was the recipe that she served in her restaurant. The man learned the recipe and followed that particular recipe every time he made it. When he went out into the world, he found that not everyone loved his pot roast. People that lived in the mile high city found that their conditions required cooking the roast at a different temperature and different length of time, or the pot roast came out under cooked. They suggested a modification that they had tried that turned out better for them. The man was outraged. He told them that they should be shamed for not following his mothers recipe. He rudely preached that there was no other way than his mothers recipe that was acceptable. Sure, he would allow for SLIGHT alterations in his mothers recipe, and he declared himself to be the abritrator of what was an acceptable alteration and what was not. There was no room for differences that he, in his own judgement, decided went beyond his definition of slight. He would not diplomatically try to help others to learn how his mothers recipe was good, but rather, would attempt to make them feel shamed for not knowing that his mothers recipe, and that it was the best. A young man came across the forum where pot roast recipes were being discussed. He had tried on several occasions to make pot roast, and was improving, but still not satisfied with his efforts. He was trying to learn more. He read the forum, and saw others chastised for not making a perfect pot roast according to the mans mother's recipe. He decided that it was not worth getting criticized, and decided to make beef stew instead, and went away, never to return. And then after a number of years, a funny thing happened. On a visit home, his mother made him a pot roast. And it tasted different. Not bad, mind you, but different. He asked his mother about it. His mother responded that she had done some market research and found that, to better serve her customers, she had to make some major changes to the recipe. What was he to do? His mothers pot roast was now different. So he did what he felt he must - he went back to the forum and preached on how the new pot roast recipe was the only proper pot roast recipe. He spoke in condesending tones to anyone that suggested that the old pot roast recipe was any good at all. And life was good.

I suppose that depends on what that 29% represents. Is it that 29% of units have no trained leaders, or 29% of leaders that are untrained? the two are not equal

Please stay on topic or spin off a thread to the issues and politics section. thanks

Pappy, Love accepted. You certainly did open up lots of options for different directions to take this topic. I do hope that this thread stays on topic of faith in scouting, and does not take the path of discussing faith in public schools, which would be a better topic for a separate thread in the politics forum. The troop that I had served was sponsored by a church that viewed scouting as one of their outreach services to the community. Typically, there were several (2 to 5) members of the church in the troop. Most were from outside of the troop, including many non-churched. Our CO did not require nor promote any particular amount of faith information to include in the troop. They were very hands off; typically an annual report to the CO, staffing services on scout Sunday, and helping with their annual garage sale. While I was SM, I did lay out the expectation to the Chaplaine's Aide that I expected him to lead a short service on every campout. Mostly this consisted of a non-denominational service taken directly from the program planning guide. Occasionally, a Chaplaine's Aide created his own, which reflected his denominations teachings and traditions. I was pleased whenever I had a scout with that amount of initiative. One idea that I tried to persuade the PLC to try was to host the church's youth group on a weekend campout. I thought that this would be a good opportunity to share their skills with frindly, non-scouting peers, develop some synergy between the groups, and be an opportunity to provide service to the CO in a fun manner.

My two blue sky ideas: 1) Create 2 tiers of methods - primary and secondary. Put advancement in the secondary tier. 2) Reposition scout camps from primary focus on MB's to primary focus on outdoor adventure.

Reminder: John in KC asked at the beginning of this post: "From now until Sunday, let's make this is a "Blue-Sky" exercise, brainstorming only. We can evaluate later."

Another thought - perhaps scouts have met their leadership requirements in past offices, and, having met the requirement for their own advancement, are satisfied because they are focused on their own needs and not the needs of their patrol and troop? jblakes strategy may work in this instance also. Perhaps a campout or two will get cancelled because no one steps up?

Match the particpants in this discussion with the leadership style(s) they are using. (Yes, I realize this is a discussion, but so is the conversation between SM and SPL.)

If this comes to pass, mine will go into a 401K. I have a lot of savings to do to make up for the drop in value since the sub prime issues wacked the market.

" If I'm spending 8 hours a day on meals instead of 4 I have more time for program. " Ya, but summer camp program areas may not be open during all non-meal hours. I have been to both. Hours that staff members were available in program areas was about the same. Personally, I prefer patrol cooking camps. I consider cooking as a patrol to be program. I am not suggesting that anyone else agree with me, nor am I trying to bash dining hall camps. Which ever works for you - there's more than one way to accomplish the aims.

Brent Allen comments: Troops give up this fantastic opportunity to teach the Patrol Method at Summer Camp, just in order to get quicker meals. I have had conversations on this topic with scouters from other troops in our area that attend dining hall camps. From those conversations, I gather that it is more than just to get quicker meals. Or to have more time for advancement (i.e. earning MB's). Beneath those explanations, patrol cooking described as work, as not being fun, and that they are on vacation and dont want to do chores that are seen as not fun. I agree that it is more work - both for scouters, who may have to couch and counsel the storming, norming, ... process that BA describes, and also for the scouts, for whom that process is frustrating, until they get through it. I think that when the adults see it as work, the scouts pick up on that. If positioned as something enjoyable, the scouts will pick up on that. Positioned as something that makes a patrol self-sufficient, and they will take pride in being able to take care of themselves. Much in the same way that attitudes on winter camping are transferred to the scouts - adults that dont like winter camping create scouts that avoid it; adults that make it obvious that it is a fun challenge create scouts that develop that attitude. I do see Eagledad's point in having such a strong patrol method culture that the patrols do patrol activities anyway. Eagledad, could you provide some of the activities that your patrols do at summercamp? Having gotten to know you through your posts, I suspect that it goes beyond lining up at flag ceremonies and dining halls together. How much time is spent be the patrols engaged in patrol activities during the week, and on what type of activities? I do like the concept of the SPL going to meetings in place of the SM. I would expect that makes the SPL feel very proud to be entrusted to that level. Would appreciate your sharing of more detail.

I would lean towards the middle option. Cold weather camping requires training and a shakedown for safety. New scouts joining the week before won't have that opportunity (unless there is a possibility that your troop leaders can find a way to do training and shakedown during the week between joining and the campout). We did lose a lot of new scouts one year after particularly nasty weather on a March campout (and this was a cabin campout). Despite instruction on proper attire, both to scouts and parents, many of them still came unprepared.

Bob W., I guess I just look at situations from a different perspective. I dont think that it helps to tell volunteers that they should be ashamed of their volunteer efforts. People are in differing places on learning curves. Could be that someone is inexperienced, or experienced in a different area. Or struggling to find ways to create a good program. And needs some ideas that they haven't thought of, or is struggling between the balance of implementing a program and guiding the PLC in taking the reins. Why should they be ashamed of that? Especially if they are trying to learn to become better volunteers?

Whats with the recurring theme of "shame on you/scout leaders" that is creeping into these threads? Aren't we all here to share our experiences and learn from each other, and maybe work towards (slowly) making the troops we work with better? Why should someone that does something differently, or even wrongly, be shamed?

>Testing is OK but retesting is a no-no! Especially not requirement 9a right before a canoe trip!

Thought I would spin this topic off from the perceptions/realities thread, so that one can get back on its topic. Here, lets share experiences with scouts own services on campouts. My experience: The troop my son was in did not have them. The chaplain's aide, like many support positions, was a "patch only" position; i.e., only thing the aide did was to lead his patrol in grace before meals. After I became SM, I asked the chaplain's aide to be responsible for leading a short service on Sunday mornings. I supplied copies of the short services that are in BSA's troop planning resources. Over time, I also printed copies of services I found via web searches. It became a regular part of monthly campouts, typically held after everything was packed up, and just before group reflection (ie. thorns & roses). I kept the copies of services in my scout stuff that I brought on every campout. On Sunday AM I asked the chaplain's aide to select one and lead the service. I was never able to get a parent to serve as chaplain. I think that the scouts holding the position would have gotten more out of it if there had. Occasionally, when either I or my SA had time on Saturday, we would meet with the chaplain's aid and help him put together a custom scouts own. When my SA helped the scout, the service tended to be less non-denominational and more towards his particular religion. I did not complain, I took a glass is half full approach and was happy that this had occurred at all. I do think tha the shared service did put the scouts in a reflective mood, and did modify behavior to their being more considerate of each other. I think it helped put a perspective on the shared fellowship of time spent outdoors together. I did try to get scouts holding chaplains aide postion to prepare a service on their own, in advance. It never happened. Scouts typically put such things out of their mind between meetings. Under today's directives, I guess I would have to fire the scout; but back then, I was happy with what we got. The only negative feedback I got was from a parent or two that thought the service a waste of time that delayed getting back home on Sunday morning.

I dont think that Lisabob was looking for advice, but rather using the experience to highlight her thought about impressions vs. realities. In my SM days, I did move the troop to add a scouts own on sunday mornings before leaving camp. Bland and boring - perhaps, but short and simple. I didnt approach it as the point being the message delivered in the scouts own, but rather the message of doing something more than grace at meals (with respect to the 12th point). I think it added to the bonding, though really couldnt put my finger on it until I accompanied a crew to Philmont, where I cam away with the impression that the stop on the trail to read the daily devotion did help towards bringing the crew together.

GW, Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't read it that way. My mistake. Here in Illinois, our state legislatures recently passed a bill making a moment of silence mandatory in all public schools. Their time could have been much better spent on state budget issues.

Crappy schools, teenage pregnancy, and shooting for sneakers are linked to insufficient quantity of public prayers? Are there no private prayers being offered by anyone to address the world going to hell in a handbasket? If not, why not? If there are, how would public prayers be more effective in addressing such problems? I am puzzled at how prayers/bible readings at a 4-H club will prevent problems GW mentions. I think they are unrelated.