Venividi

SR540, I would hope that no one would jump on you for describing how the SM of your son's troop adheres to the MB program. Its a SM's responsibility to know scouts sufficiently well to guide them to appropriate MB's for their maturity level. It is great that he cares enough about the skills that the scouts take away from the troop that he uses the MB process as it is intended. Only advice I would offer up is to refer to "maturity level" rather than "age". The two typically track closely to such an extent that when people use age as a criteria, they often really mean maturity.

Or that Boards of Review can be held for reasons other than advancement review. BOR's can be held when a scout is having issues, there is perceived trouble in the troop, etc. BSA recommends BORs even when a scout is not advancing.

Great job, BrentAllen. Both Scout A and the rest of the troop will see that the adults walk the talk.

OGE asked: If the Eagle requirements need to be beefed up, how do we do that? Where do we start? I dont think that the requirements need to be beefed up. Units just need to use the ones that exist in a manner that allows them to meet the aims of their particular program. Which means that scouters need to understand their units aims, and communicate them to scouts, to parents, to BOR panels, to committee members. And also be willing to learn from experience and try new approaches when the current approaches are not having the desired results. It means having high expectations for each scout, communicating them, encouraging them, and giving them feedback when they are not living up to what you know they should be capable of, and using the advancement method as a carrot to encourage them to do more than they thought they were capable of. It means not accepting meeting plans where an instructor demonstrates a skill, the scout parrots it, and the requirement is signed off. It means caring enough about the development of a scouts character that you are willing to deal with an angry parent whose son didn't get approved for rank advancement because the scout needs improvement in the scout spirit area.

Great idea, Ntrog8r. For a challenge like the camp stools - do scouts build them at troop meetings or outside of meetings? Are materials supplied in addition to plans, or is the PL responsible to make sure that someone in his patrol gets to Home Depot?

I'll start. When my son started with his troop many years ago, the patrol competition portion of the meeting was referred to by the boys as "game time". They typically chose up teams and rotated between football, dodge ball, capture the flag, and snatch the bacon. After becoming Scoutmaster I tried moving towards using scout skills during the interpatrol-competition portion of the meeting. I first tried asking patrol leaders to bring ideas to PLC's. They didn't, so eventually I proposed some that I modified from project adventure books or based on scout skills. Ones that I remember include: - Lashing three staves together to create a pole long enough to reach out and snap a mousetrap. - Lashing three staves together in a triangular pattern and then using this to transport scouts across a field. - Tieing lengths of ropes together with square knots and then heaving it to a scout sitting on the floor on the other side of the room. That scout then tied a bowline knot around himself and the rest of the patrol pulled him back to "safety". - Kim's game - Scout Jeopardy questions. - At summer camp, patrols were encouraged to shout their patrol cheer and say grace as loudly as possible to signify that their patrol was the first one (or not the last one) to complete cooking their meal and were now starting to eat. The benefit was that the scouts learned their scouting skills better, because they wanted to beat the other patrols. They also had a lot of fun. Even the losing patrol would continue on to the end. I didn't do anything special for the new scout patrol. They typically lost. One of my successors as SM included a competition at TLT. The SPL broke the boys up into two groups. The boys were told that there would be a group test at the end, and the winning group would get a pizza. He said that the boys were very attentive because they wanted to beat the other group.(This message has been edited by venividi)

In the troop seperated into patrols thread, patrol competitions were briefly touched on. I think the topic is worthy of its own thread as a place for folks to share how their troop implements inter-patrol competitions. Does your troop have them? At troop meetings? On weekend campouts? At Summer Camp? Give some examples of inter-patrol competitions that you have used, both successful and unsuccessful. If your troop uses a new scout patrol, how do you include them in the competitions?

It is interesting how experiences can be so different. My experience with same age patrols was that patrol leaders in same age patrols didn't do much leading. I contribute that to 1)the boys didn't know how, so they didn't do anything unless an adult led them, 2)the PL scout was reluctant to lead because he was afraid that his patrol members might not like him or his ideas, 3)young PL's did not have the disciple to come prepared to PLC's, so PLC's became boring. Older scouts then no longer wanted to become PL's because they remembered the boring the PLC's.

Kudu wrote: "Young man, I see you are a Boy Scout! Can you help my child? He's choking!" "Sorry, I was already signed off on that so I forgot. Wow, does that resonate with me. I ran a first aid scenario at district Klondike again this year. The scenario was composed of first aid for a broken collar bone and first aid for a bleeding wound; straight out of first class requirements. Out of 10 patrols, none could make a proper sling, and only two treated the bleeding wound correctly. Three patrols treated the bleeding wound by applying a splint.

jandemama, When you talk to the cubmaster, I recommend asking him to step in rather than telling him that he should step in for now. I dont know your cubmaster, the extent of his involvement, nor what other responsibilities that he has in his life. But I do know that as a cubmaster I would not be appreciative of someone telling me what I should do. Also, be clear about what you are Asking him to do. As a former cubmaster, I would say "yes" to stepping in and calling a meeting with the parents, laying out the issues, and letting them select the next leader from among themselves. I would also ask the PW derby committee chair to make sure that the boys got their kits. I would say "no" to stepping in as an interim den leader.

Interesting discussion. Stosh, Do you have a guided discovery conversations with the PLC to help see advantages and disadvantages of various options? How do your scouts handle inter-patrol competition when they divide themselves up by age/grade level? Thanks, Venividi

83 Eagle, You have received a lot of good advice. I think that the most useful input that you will be able to find anywhere is from you. Start with a "I wish I had known ...", and then supplement it with ideas that you receive elsewhere. That way the document is based on your unit's culture, allows your voice and passion to come through, and carries the social capital that you have built up for yourself in the pack.

"Patrol competition and patrols livin' together leads to patrol pride and bonding without any adult help." This is what I sometimes often missing from troops; - the competition of patrol vs patrol. I think this is where mixed age patrols have an advantage over same age patrols. A patrol of 14 year olds will win against a patrol of 11 year olds. So rather than having real patrol competition, troops may do a school yard pick among whomever is present. In that environment there never is any real need for patrols to spend any time in practicing skills in preparation for the next inter-patrol competition, because the odds are so stacked in favor of the older patrol that practice becomes a minor factor, or inter-patrol competition becomes game time or hanging out time instead.

Stosh, That sounds like a heavy handed way to approach the issue. I reread Beavah's post, and don't see any suggestion that the issue be handled like that. I would expect that experienced SM's are adept enough to engage the PLC in a discussion about the issues the troop has in bringing new scouts into the troop, let them float their ideas, put out some additional options to consider, help them uncover the advantages and disadvantages of each. An adept SM implements the methods to achieve the aims by using coaching and persuasion, not by using the iron fist.

Interesting dilemma you have. Troops come to summer camp and may have the expectation that they give you new scouts, and by the end of the week you will have led them through first class skills. Thats what I thought the first year that I attended summer camp. It took a few years to understand that was unfair to the camp, to the new scout, and to the older boys in the troop. I like your out of the box thinking about implementing a troop guide program and incorporating them into the summer camp First Year Program. I'll toss out another idea: what about implementing a First Year Program that supports troops running their own program. Perhaps a staff member goes to troop campsite and aids the troop in setting up their own schedule, using their own troop guides and instructors, to teach the skills that you traditionally do with camp staff.

I'ld like to add to twocubdad's excellent reply. Fourth, First Year Program at summer camp is advancement focused. It exposes the scouts to a requirement, they do it once, and are signed off. That type of learning often isn't retained. Fifth, it shifts responsibility for the new scouts from the troop guides, troop instructors, and patrol leaders to the summer camp staff. A major benefit of the patrol method and boy run is that the boys of the troop have the responsibility to plan and implement a program that develops the skills of the new scouts in the troop. It is good for troop and patrol leaders to have that responsibility and follow through on it. The new scouts learn skills, and the older troop and patrol leaders gain confidence in their abilities. It also promotes bonding between them. As an alternative to the first year program at summer camp, set the expectation that the troop instructors will set up and run a "troop only" first year program. The scouts (and especially their parents) may balk, because it can take away from the time that they could be working on merit badges for themselves. So you may need to sell the value of serving as a leader over that of collecting merit badges.

Wow! Its not often that I disagree with something from Calico. But I am going to vehemently disagree with "They already are [trustworthy] - the moment they become Scouts." I say that the moment that they become scouts they have an ideal to live up to. It is not likely that they live up to it. We should have the expectation that scouts live up to the ideal, communicate that expectation to them, and show sorrow and disappointment when they don't. It is within human nature to attempt to lie to avoid getting in trouble or to further self interest. It is our goal as scouing mentors to help them make those ideals become part of their lives. Note: I do agree with his statement that we should act as if they are. That is part of communicating expectations.

Some thoughts: Dont let one experience that didnt work as well as you expected derail what you are trying to accomplish. The same argument can be and often is used to justify adults taking on roles that scouts should be doing (an example that I have seen: scouts didnt dry their tents after the last campout, resulting in mildew; so from now on an adult will keep track of all tents, who has took them home to dry them, and call each scout to remind them to unpack and dry the tent, with a followup call to remind them to return the tent at the next troop meeting). Before doing that, try: - Talk to the patrol leaders and have a review of what went well and what didn't. Point out that there didnt seem to be much patrol cohesiveness,and ask them to develop ideas to solve the problem. Let them know your expectations, and why you have those expectations. They will want to live up to your expectations, so have high ones, but make sure that you communicate them frequently in ways that they can understand. - Talk to the scouts individually about why they chose to abandon their patrol mates in favor of hanging with their own age group. Appeal to their sense of duty and fairness, and explain your expectation that they would be working with the younger members of their patrols to help them increase their skill levels. - Have more patrol level competitions on campouts. Set this expectation with the PLC, and work with them to implement them. From meals to campfires to scout skill based competitions throughout the weekend, have competition based points and scoring, with the winning patrol receiving some nominal prize (pizza at the next troop meeting perhaps?). The real objective is to give a patrol bragging rights over the other patrols. - Seperate the patrols when camping. If all the patrols are camping adjacent to each other then they really arent patrols, but one rather are one large group with an artifical designation as separate patrols.

Yah, I dont think a troop needs to be an Eagle mill to perceive requirements as done once and that's sufficient. A of reference point that I see: Very few scouts are proficient at the first aid skills represented in the T-2-1 first aid requirements, and this includes troops that would not be considered mills. I run a first aid scenario as part of camporees, and it is very obvious that the majority of the scouts have spent little if any time doing them after the requirement was signed off. And first aid is one of the most important skills that scouts should be good at when out in the field.

Teaching is a good thing, and there should be expectations that experienced scouts will teach less experienced scouts; older scouts will teach younger scouts, and not simply pull off by themselves. This is an expectation that Scoutmasters must expressly communicate, or it may not happen. The concern that I have with making teaching a requirement is that it moves from something that is expected as part of troop membership to something that is done to meet a requirement, and once the requirement has been completed, it subtly communicates to the scouts that they have done what they need to do and there is no compelling reason to do any more.

Twocubdad, There is a way to do a service project that benefits a well deserving individual - do it for a church. For example, say a scout is aware of an elderly widow whose house is in disrepair, and she does not have the money or means to do the repairs. The scout would like to scrape and paint their house as a project. The scout could approach either his church or the widow's church to propose this project as part of their community outreach program, and offer to lead the project. The benefactor is now the church rather than an individual. (I would not recommend this if the widow was the scout's grandmother or other relative.)

Had a similar situation a number of years ago when the swimming requirement could be waived without a doctors statement. The father talked to me asserting that the lad was taking swimming lessons, and that he would continue to take swimming lessons, but he was frightened of water and wouldn't be able to pass the second class swim requirements. I discussed with the committee and came to the consensus that it would be better to go with the alternate requirements than to disuade the scout from scouting. Turned out to be one of the worst decisions that we made. The boy did not like scouting, the outdoors, or even being with his patrol mates. He did want to please his father, who wanted his son to get an Eagle. It was the first step in continued intervention by the father to push for advancement approval for his son while the boy made little to no effort in scouting.

Scouts that have no interest in camping or the outdoors, but are highly interested in obtaining Eagle. And the parents of these boys.

"There's no reason at all why WFA shouldn't be da standard for First Aid MB at least" I like that. Too often I have seen First Aid MB offered at MB Universities, where scouts can complete the badge in a classroom type setting in half a day, or at summer camp in 4 2-hour sessions, (with some pre-class work, such as putting together a first aid kit). That amount of First Aid training is not enough (in my opinion).

The units that I have seen that have trouble getting youth leaders to step up have been units that have a higher than average effort towards the advancement method. A culture has developed where scouts take positions to fulfill an advancement requirement. And where adults counsel boys to take a position because they need it to fulfill an advancement requirement. Once that advancement requirement has been fulfilled, the scouts now drop back from actively contributing to the troop until the next time that they need to fulfill a requirement for their next rank. Then this is supported by adult scouters and BOR's that reward scouts with advancement even if the scout gave minimal effort to his POR. One strategy to getting youth leaders to step up is to break that tie and spend less effort on the advancement method. Don't teach first class requirements to meet the advancement requirements, teach outdoors skills that are needed for the next outing to make it more fun and safe, whether or not those skills are advancement requirements. Don't treat POR's as advancement requirements, but as real responsibilities with real authority. Where an occasional camp out gets cancelled because no one stepped up. It is really no different than the problem many units have where parents don't step up to share the workload of supporting the troop, where as long as events continue to happen, they dont see a need. I like jblake's description of tossing opportunities into the wastebasket when no one volunteers. It is a very visual demonstration to the boys of events that wont happen if they dont step up. Be sure to celebrate and publicly congratulate when a scout steps up and gives real effort. Give him some type of homemade troop award to recognize real achievement. Those will be more meaningful than handing out a rank advancement where scouts know that the rank award recipient made little if any effort to step up.