Venividi

vogelb, Yes, its much easier to know what should be done, than to actually be successful in juggling 5 scouts standing in line with blue cards, 3 PL's that need advice, review next week's meeting with the SPL, find out why the ASPL hasn't been working with the scouts holding POR's, meeting with scouts that are having difficulty getting traction in his POR, and listening to parents that want to tell you how you should be doing your job. All at 8:35 after the troop meeting. "EXACTLY what should be happening" often borders on the impossible. (Good SM's eventually learn to recruit, train, and delegate to parents.) Eventually it will become common knowledge that the expectations are that scouts will have Mr. Bill or Mrs. Bonnie for Citizenship badges when they are in at least 7th grade, Mr. T or Mrs. C for Personal Management, no Eagle required badges at summer camp, etc., because the troop culture is one that cares more about the quality of the program than about getting MB's completed. And parents that understand the benefits of such a program will convey that message to parents of new scouts and parents of scouts considering the troop. (This message has been edited by venividi)

> Today my guys pick and choose what they want. Most could care less about their patrol, it's all about what "I" want. Interesting observation, Eagle732. And yet we see many troops catering to that philosophy. Even supporting and encouraging it without even realizing it. MB universities, Eagle badges at summer camp, credit for wearing a POR patch, combine patrols on campouts because of low participation rates, tell kids that they should strive for Eagle, find ways to "interpret" a requirement". COH's are filled with giving out individual awards and recognition rather than patrol awards and recognition. Many adults take pride in "helping" scouts earn Eagle, and in so doing, take away the very thing that boys take pride in.(This message has been edited by venividi)

duplicate post. sorry(This message has been edited by venividi)

> Ifg the SM has an issue with a given MBC he may suggest the scout work woth someone else but otherwise the SM should bring this up to the district and or council if the MBC is not up to par. The SM's responsibility requires more than suggesting a MBC to work with. It is the SM's responsibility to provide the name of the MBC that the scout is to call. Yes, the SM should inform the district advancement chair if/when they become aware of a MBC that doesn't follow the requirements, but why in the world would a SM (or any caring adult), want the scout to use a MBC that they know does not follow the requirements? That would be abdicating their role and responsibility. "The importance of the Scoutmaster's job is reflected in the fact that the quality of his guidance will affect every youth and adult involved in the troop." Some SM's believe that "go find a counselor" is good guidance. Other SM's believe directing the scout to a MBC that will provide a good experience is good guidance.(This message has been edited by venividi)

> Helping our SCOUTS learn to make good choices is what we are trying to do. Which is why a good SM doesn't respond to an 11 scout "You want to take the Citizenship in the World Merit Badge? Great! Here's a blue card and the name of the merit badge counselor for you to call. Go gettem' tiger!" Nor does he/she say "Citizenship in the World? Your only 12 years old, we want you to wait until you are 14." Neither helps the scout learn to make good choices. A good SM is more likely to say "You want to take Citizenship in the World? Tell me why.", and then listen. Response is then dependent on what the scout says. Scout says "Because Dad wants me to get it out of the way at Summer Camp." Response: "Here at Troop 5, we have our scouts take this badge with Mr. Bill, because he is a World History teacher, and he does a great job with this badge." Or "Citizenship in the World is a hard one for 11 year old boys. We have found that scouts do best with this badge when they do it at the same time that they take World Civics class in 8th grade. Would you like to do your best? How about if you wait on this one until then?" Scout says "Because its Eagle required." SM might respond with "I see that you have already started on 5 other MBs. Tell me how you are doing on those. (listen). I'ld like to see you finish what you started. How about if you complete one or two of those in the next 3 weeks before you start on another badge. Does that sound reasonable to you?" Or "Two months ago you volunteered to be troop historian, (librarian, QM, etc.). We've talked several times about that responsibility, and each time you say that you haven't done anything yet. Do you think it is a good idea to start working on a MB like this one, when you don't have the time to do the things that the historian is supposed to do?" Scout says "Because my Mom works for the Secretary of State, and she talks about other countries at the dinner table every night. It sounds interesting to me." SM might then respond with "That's great. I think the MB counselor may even learn something from you." (And then make a note to ask the committee chair to recruit the scout's mom.) I don't agree that giving out a blue card every time a scout asks for it, without providing appropriate guidance and direction is a good way for a scout to learn to make good decisions.

Promote the raisins. I've heard a story about a prune (make that dried plum) eating contest.

The typical aluminum mess kit with a plastic drinking cup that has measurements so that it can be used to measure cooking ingredients is something that new scouts like. As artjrk says, they stop using them within a year. The aluminum dish/pot transfers heat too well, so is too hot to hold. The cup is too small to make a cup of hot cocoa, and also becomes too hot to hold when filled with hot cocoa. You will probably buy one for your son anyway, because its one of those things that make boys feel like real campers. We promoted frisbees. Cheap (often free givaways as promotional items); indestructible, and after dinner you can play with it. We recommended the local salvation army thrift store for spoon, knife, and fork, and a plastic mug - again a typical promotional giveaway. Cost is about $0.10 per item. A scout is thrifty.

Church youth groups are able to provide opportunities to develop character and citizenship without uniforms.

5year - Looks like your boy is developing that sense of jblake's "take care of your boys". You must be bursting with pride. Make sure he knows how proud you are. Actions like that deserve a special award. Our troop gave out awards that for a lack of a better name, I'ld call "scout spirit awards". Often these were more meaningful than BSA awards.

Calico, I'm not offended by a decision either way. I'm simply suggesting that the aims of scouting be considered when making such decisions. Still we won't arrive at a consensus - it depends on what is most important to the decision maker. And I'm fine with that.

Platypus, You are an example of what is right with scouting, and what we want boys to get out of scouting (besides getting as many as possible to advance - 'cause how else will anyone know that we are good leaders and parents :-) very big grin) Please continue to define what how scouting would be if left up to scouts - your doing a good job.

Was thinking about this while out for my evening run - about the widely divergent answers offered here: Do X because of abc; Do Y because of def; do Z because (thats the rule / it's not prohibited by the rules) [take your choice]. Everyone jumped in with answers, when it might have been better to ask questions first to explore what you want the scouts to get out of scouting. Because the appropriate answers always come easier when there is a clear understanding of what is important to the decision maker. So some questions: Will the scout quit scouting if rank advancement is delayed a couple of months due to broken ankles? Will the scout be dissappointed if he is delayed in advancement? If so, is the goal to prevent dissappointment? If so, why? Or is there an opportunity for a character lesson in learning how to deal with dissappointment? Which answer is most consistent with the mission and aims of scouting? Would the answer be different if the delay was 2 years rather than two months? Are 5 mile hikes scheduled because they are needed for scouts to meet an advancement requirement? Or are they scheduled on a regular basis (once a month?) because they are fun and give the scouts another chance to explore different trails and woods with their fellow patrol members? If so, then the scout is able to go on the next regular hike after the doctor gives the OK. Is there an opportunity here for some coaching of the patrol leader with a "Would you be interested in taking your patrol on a hike in November because "John" wants to go on one, and will be recovered by then?" - Thats when you will see if the patrol has really bonded and find a way to come out and support their buddy, or if they see no reason to go because they have that requirement complete. I think we as leaders are always faced with those moral and ethical choices that is part of the mission of scouting. This is an ethical decision, and the answer depends on that vision thing that Barry promotes. Whatever your decision, make it consistent with your vision.(This message has been edited by venividi)

5yearscouter's original objective: So what would you do to keep a scout interested, excited and chugging along, when he has a broken leg at the ankle,... A different perspective: I assume that this is a relatively new scout, given that he has one more requirement for 2nd & 1st class. I have yet to meet a new scout that joined a troop because he was interested and excited about advancement. He joined for fun, adventure, being with friends, camping, playing in the creek, lighting a campfire, exploring the woods, ... Somewhere along the line, adults think that scouts will lose their interest and excitement, and will stop chugging along if we somehow don't shepherd them along the advancement trail. That being outdoors doing fun stuff and learning new skills somehow is no longer enough to keep them interested. Adults may even convince the scouts that activities are not worth doing if there is not some advancement or award associated with it. Perhaps not overtly, but unconsiously by focusing on advancement activities instead of activities for their sheer fun and enjoyment.

"Scouting program's lack of competition lowers it importance in their minds" AvidSM's statement got me thinking on a tangent to the thought above. I think that a lack of competition in scouting makes scouting less fun for the boys. Boys love competition. So think of ways to add more of it into troop meetings. Real patrol vs. patrol relay type races with scout skills; not ad hoc divide up whomever shows up. May the best patrol win. Competition provides the incentive to learn those skills that might never otherwise get used on a campout (as was discussed in a recent thread). Competition fosters comraderie. Competition teaches teamwork. Competition fosters patrol members helping other patrol members.

Nice observation, Federalist. Next step is to take the adult enthusiasm for traditional skills and convey that to the scouts. (They are not likely to see the need to whip the ends of ropes that they only use occasionally to learn knots.) Gotta find reasons for them to use them on campouts. I like the idea of campouts with no tents, no trailers, not a single luxury (a Giligans Island weekend, perhaps?)

How come no one ever mentions programs like Health and Welfare, Department of Education, Department of Environmental Quality, Army corps of engineers, Department of interior, Department of agriculture, and many other federal programs that suck money out of the system just to pay those working in the programs. Why not start the cuts in the personnel department. Cause they aren't big enough to make a difference. It would be like eliminating a monthly trip to Dairy Queen for an ice cream cone because you cant make your mortgage payment. Sure, its a savings, but you still cant make the mortgage payment.

Remember that all the scouts in the troop will be aware of how this is handled. The other scouts will know if there was real concern, vengence, or a simple wink and a nod, without a real expectation of change. How the situation is handled impacts far more than the individual scout. Did the scouters come down unreasonably hard on the scout? Did they say or imply the scout can't eligible for another advancement? Did the scouters ignore it and look the other way? Did they hand the scout an award and say don't do it again? Did an adult leader that has a relationship with the scout have a sit down, heart to heart chat about character, the pressure the scout has to fit in with other peers that drink, have romantic encounters, be unkind, etc.? Perhaps have a conversation about the expectations that the troop has of scouts for (whatever his next rank is), and if he thinks that he is living up to that expectation? Depending on the situation, perhaps even telling the scout might otherwise be eligible for a rank advancement in the near future that a change is needed before he can be recommended to a BOR for the next rank. There is no "one size fits all" for this situation. It depends on what you see after the conversation. Do you see real remorse, or the scout saying what he thinks the adult wants to hear. That is only revealed through time. Keep in mind that advancement is often more important to adults than it is to the scouts. A rank advancement may not be meaningful to a particular scout, despite all the beliefs that adults have that advancement is important. Situations like this reveal the character of the adults. They can veer too far in either direction, avoiding that heart to heart conversation and holding the scout to meaningful expectations that a true mentor would have.

Interesting comment, basementdweller, as the MB program was intended to be a mentorship between an adult knowledgeable in the subject and a scout. Imagine if you will an EMT as a counsellor that can bring enthusiasm to a one on one relationship, hold counselling sessions at an emergency facility, etc. vs. a summer camp setting with 12 - 20 students.

When I first became a scout leader, I was much like Basementdweller's description. Organizing every meeting, making arrangements for whatever, on troop outings being SM, making reservations, creating and collecting permission slips, packing up my truck with troop gear before a campout, unloading it into the scout shed after the campout. I was a slow learner. Finally realized that I was making the unit weaker by doing so much myself. It was difficult getting scouts and parents to start doing all those things, but over ensuing months and years, the unit became stronger because more people were sharing the work. I did take secret delight when a parent that stepped up to making campground reservations complained that no one else ever volunteered to help her. (She had a son in the troop for several years before she volunteered for anything, and then only because I told the troop committee what I would no longer be doing, and if the parents didn't start doing those things, they wouldn't get done). One of the best skills that I received from scouting was the ability to delegate. It's really not that hard, but you have to have faith, and accept that things will be done differently than you would do them. and sometimes not at all. Sometimes a campout is missed because no one volunteers. Sometimes the unit will need to buy new tents because no one set up and aired out the tents, so they were put away wet. Accept it. Those are the things that let everyone know that they are needed, and that is a priceless lesson. Next time they will do better.(This message has been edited by venividi)

jtswestark, catching up on the thread here, and wow!, do I like your description of the challenges of putting together a scout camp program (posted on Thursday, on page 4 of this thread). A lot of work, little pay, little sleep, lots of frustrations. And people complain that its not being done right. Yep, pitch in to make it better, chose the program elements that your troop's scouts will make use of, and make it work for your unit. If units had to pay the cost required to support the level of program that is being asked for, this thread would be about the excessively high cost of summer camp instead of being about complaints of inappropriate MB signoffs. In my opinion, camp staffing is a better learning experience than attending camp to earn a handfull of MB's, or even a week of camping filled with non-MB activities. My daughter was a counsellor at a summer camp for two years (not a scout camp). If people valued learning experiences more than awards, I think that they would approach their program differently.

" no one from council or National is enforcing them or can enforce them." Nor should they. That is not their job, it is the unit's responsibility to decide on the quality level that they want, the standards they expect, and then implement a program that provides it. They can go to summer camp and pick and choose the elements that fit with their program. Dont want the scouts to spend all day in MB classes? Only approve a few MB's for each boy. Meet with the PLC and ask them to have each patrol plan a patrol activity for each day (hike, swim, rock climb, leave the camp to go golfing,... anything as long as it is a patrol only activity (and safe and legal). Have each patrol be responsible for running a game/scout skill competition for the other patrols. Have the PLC plan a campfire with patrol skits and songs. That stuff gets taught in leader training, but often gets neglected, and the leaders dont communicate that expectation to the scouts. So the scouts develop a culture of scout camp as a combination of MB classes and hanging out at the commissary. It doesn't have to be that way, but it takes vision, motivation to buck the status quo, and backbone to stand up to a scout's parent who is expecting their son to return with a pile of MB's, otherwise it was a wasted week. I really like that saying: "all scouting is local"

twocubdad, I like your approach and keeping things in balance. Two of my most disheartening experiences were: 1) a conversation with a SM where I asked how summer camp went, and the response was something like "Great! The boys earned XXX(quantity) MB's during the week!" Sure, there were other good things, but his first thought was the number of MB's the kids earned. I was surprised that a SM would even know the total quantity earned, let alone be interested in it, and have it be the first response to said question. 2) Attending a Court of Honor where the scouts that earned the most merit badges were recognized and praised. People may talk that there are 8 methods, but one of them frequently is the trump card. Adults like quantitative measurements, and number of MB's is as quantitative as one can get.

jtswestark, I agree with you to a point. The point being that the outdoors is a good place to teach first aid and other badges you listed. And there-in lies the problem - teaching. Even the best staff cant be effective counsellors in a group setting. They become teachers. Nothing wrong with teachers, but they are different than counsellors. They are faced with a situation where they must get a lot of boys through the badge in classroom type settings. Much of the responsibility shifts from scouts to the staff. Staff has larger issues than making sure each and every scout completes each requirement on his own. Reguarding your second paragraph, I'm not sure why there must be an arguement to win or lose. A troop can take the position certain merit badges will not be approved to be taken at summer camp. SM signature is required, and SM can specify a non-camp staff MB counsellor. The troop has control over the quality of the experience that the troop's scouts will have with MB's. It need not be abdicated to a camp, MB university, or other entity.

One problem with mile swims in a pool is there are too many opportunities to hang on the edge of the pool, or put your feet on the bottom and rest. Even if it is a significant achievement, (and I agree that it is still difficult) the scouts know it is tainted. (like Mark McGuire's record - sure it is a great achievement, even with drugs. But still, it is just not the same.) When I did the mile swim as a scout leader (in a lake), there was a scout in camp that was on his third mile before I finished my mile. He went on to swim a total of 5. Wow!

It happened to me once. Took a trip involving an airline flight. Security saw something on the scanner and took my carry-on to search. It was a typical book bag backpack with lots of different zippered compartments. They didnt find anything and let me continue. When I unpacked at my destination, I found two shotgun shells in one of th zippered compartments. I did not bring them back home, and I bought a seperate bag to take on future hunting trips.