Twocubdad

I had a guy who took some of the Scouts who were behind their peers in rank and held instruction to help them get over the hump/caught up. But your OP suggests that the reason for the appointed project is because the fellow is short of time and you're looking to skirt the time requirement. I don't believe that is proper. Even if it were, it's a bad idea/precedent. If this fellow is Star and only has 10 month until his birthday, you need to let him know time has already run out on Eagle. Also note appointed leadership projects are not an option for Eagle at all.

Well, that's part of my point. I rather doubt many folks, teenage boys especially, have the analytical ability to look at three months of cold data and see those trends. I think you get more out of the process if you are "living with" the numbers on something close to a daily basis. Of course you can make the opposite argument too. But more than anything, I think it's just too easy. Another case where we've abandoned the process and experience in favor of expedient results.

He presented it by saying "here are the reports I printed from my I-Phone app which automatically track my deposits and expenses." But you don't feel part of the requirement is the effort and discipline of tracking manually tracking your money over 90 days? What's the difference between "my I-Phone does it automatically" and "my mommy does it for me"? I disagree, DC, that this is just data entry -- it's observation and data collection. Having to think about, remember and record your expenses at the end of the day is a much different vibe that just scanning a web report and hitting print. Or for Personal Fitness how about a p 12-week fitness program of getting plenty of rest, drinking 8 glasses of water a day and thinking fit thoughts? Is effort no longer a part of the program or is coming up with creative, easy means of completing the requirement all we're looking for? This approach moves Personal Management from being one of the tougher MBs which requires real effort to earn to being on a par with Citizenship in the Nation. Just read the pamphlet and spit the info back to the counselor.

Do the following: a. Prepare a budget reflecting your expected income (allowance, gifts, wages), expenses, and savings. Track your actual income, expenses, and savings for 13 consecutive weeks. (You may use the forms provided in this pamphlet, devise your own, or use a computer generated version.) When complete, present the results to your merit badge counselor. b. Compare expected income with expected expenses. 1. If expenses exceed income, determine steps to balance your budget. 2. If income exceeds expenses, state how you would use the excess money (new goal, savings). Question -- would you consider the requirement met if a Scout provides a copy of his debit card statements for three months? Or a report from an I-Phone app which automatically receives and records debit card transactions? Or is part of the requirement to actually individually record income and expenses for 13 weeks? Or in other words, what does "track" mean? Yes, I know interpretation is up to the counselor, but the counselor is asking me.

I got a two pound bag at the feed & seed for $4.95. Use it on the squash and zucchini borer beetles.

Don't have the problem with summer camp, but we used to get grief about not "supporting" district camporees. DC is on the right track. My Level I response is like his: "We're Scout led, so the boys decide where they camp." For the more persistent, Level II "We've found the program really doesn't meet our needs. When you change the program to better suit our interests, we'll take another look." And for the really annoying, buttinsky twits, Level III: "You should stop by the troop meeting and submit an application to be the new Scoutmaster. You can run the troop the way you like." (I've only had to pull the trigger on that on once.)

I've not found dictionaries to be particularly helpful in understanding BSA policies.

If the SE and DFS didn't spend the time and extra few bucks to present those JWFs they should have been charged with 150+ counts of fraud/larceny.

After selling 451 cases of cookies I'd have dropped the remaining 49 off in front of the council office and told them to put them somewhere. And it would be the last da.. uh... dang cookie I ever sold or ate. You folks who know about cookie prices and mark ups correct me, but to my math it would appear the council still got their full wholesale price on the "donation" and most assuredly profited on the cookies the girls sold. I know in our council the few times there have been problems like this the council tries to work everything out on the council's cost of the popcorn. Insisting on making your net on someone's mistake is wrong. And it sure doesn't engender anyone to cooperate in next year's sale. Here, cookies sell for $4 a box and the troop gets 50 cents, or 12.5%. Popcorn sales net troops 25-33%, depending on the plan and bonuses. The poor girls are getting scr..uh...ripped off. I admit it, I always have to have a box or two of Thin Mints and my wife comes home from the office with a couple more. After that, anytime I see girls selling cookies, I'll give them a few bucks and make sure their leaders know it is a donation to the troop. I don't know any BSA leaders who would put up with that treatment.

And What would have Happened if No One to have it... would they have refused to send a group to Jambo? I was a jambo SM last time. The parents I could deal with -- a couple nut jobs, but many were leaders of their sons' home troops and got it. The ones I wanted to smack were the council jamboree committee members. The very best advice, information and guidance you could get for the 1988 jamboree. "Well, the way we did it in '05..... "No, no! The way we did it in '01 was.... "Yeah but the proper procedure was the way we did it in '97....." Wish we could have left them all in Richmond.

As best as I could, I would answer any questions he had. If he asks my opinion/perspective, I would offer it. But I don't think I would try to talk him into or out of anything. At 17 he can make up his own mind about being in Scouting regardless of the reasons.

A couple things, probably more of long-term than what you need, but.... First, invite the new CC out for a cup of coffee. You need to build a relationship with him. Running the troop very much needs to be a partnership between the two of you. You're model needs to be that you to are a tag-team, with him focusing on the adults and you on the boys. If he, and the rest of the committee, think they are the board of directors and you are management, or that they can do their "thing" independent of the troop program, it's not going to work. You two sit down and figure out what your goals are for the troop. What do you want the program to look like in a year? Five years? What are your interests? High Adventure? Community service? Making sure everyone makes Eagle? Being more patrol focused? When you have a common goal in mind, how to get there becomes much easier. Secondly, the two of you have to communicate that to the committee. A few years ago we had a slug of new parents joint the committee Something we did was to contact the district training chairman and set up an old-fashioned "Troop Committee Challenge" training session. Used to be, troop committees all took training together. The focus of the training is for everyone to learn their jobs and those of the other committee members. Training together has the benefit of getting folks to put a face with the position and to have conversations about how they can work together. The district trainer and I worked together to include in the training the "local variations" of troop operations. From a strictly bureaucratic standpoint, for example, our "advancement committee" is really a whole lot of folks who take different parts of the job -- MB coordinator, BOR coordinator, records, etc. On the other hand, "outings" really isn't a committee function at all, but is handled by the ASMs. It's not by the book, but fits our people and resources. But more than organization, the training gave us (okay, mostly me) the opportunity to talk about the troop culture and the vision for how the troop operated. By the way, one of your "local variations" needs to be that the SM is involved in and contributes to all committee meetings! (Admittedly, this takes the right trainer -- one who sees the big picture and understand his job is to help you develop your troop leaders. If the trainer is a pedantic, by the book, follow-the-syllabus-or-the-ghost-of-James-West-will-strike-me-dead sort, it won't work. Shop around.) This is basic leadership. One of the most important leadership traits it to communicate your vision for the organization. Standing on the hill with the flag and saying, "over here." Right now, your committee is new, unstructured and really has no idea of where it is going or how to get there. The adults are defaulting to what they know from business and everyday life -- let's take the shortest, most efficient route to getting the job done. But that's not Scouting. Scouting usually takes the scenic route. Sure, adults setting up merit badge classes and running all the boys through is the most efficient and productive, but our purpose is not efficiency. Rather, we teach boys to make their own arrangements and developing the self-confidence and ambition to call an adult and ask for an appointment. Having the committee schedule and run the fundraiser may have been the easiest way to make money, but it short circuited a number of program elements, not to mention the campout. You need to become the unit leader in a very real sense. You need to be the guy on the hill with the flag. That means you need to be better trained than anyone in the troop and have a better understand and solid grasp of the program. That way, when the committee lays another egg like the fundraiser, you can very matter-of-factly explain why it's a bad idea. Not because that's your personal opinion or it doesn't work with your schedule, but specifically, point-by-point, why it's bad Scouting.

Yeah, you're probably right. Maintaining strict adherence to jurisdictional lines is the top priority in the proper function of a Webelos den. We must be vigilant that unauthorized committee members and ad hoc volunteers not improperly involve themselves in den operations. Our prime objective -- ensuring Scouts earning all 20 Webelos activity pins -- could be jeopardized. Lawyer on!

Mrs. Ka -- Venividi's observations are on target. I hope you will take his comments in the spirit in which he offers them and reconsider your attitude toward the leadership in your son's pack. The leaders may be off base, they may be asking more of your son because they think he can do more or they may just be doing the best they can. But give them the benefit of the doubt. The time and effort they devote to your son and the program entitles them to that. Secondly, consider what your son is learning from this -- that sometimes you have a "tough boss" and need to grit your teeth and go the extra mile? Or that he can count on his mother to plow the ground in front of him? Thanks, V. I thought I was going to have to be "that guy" again, but you said it well.

Too bad the dens can't meet online. Or maybe someone could develop an app so the boys can complete their badges on their own. Then busy families would only have to attend pack meetings when their Scout is actually receiving the awards.

Sorry, none of that makes it your business. It is your business to provide guidance, advice and resources when asked. If you want to be this involved in the troop's business, do it right and put in an application to be the new CC -- or SM for that matter. If accepted, THEN it's your business and responsibility. Currently it is neither. All this stuff you say is your duty are situations in which you have wrongly inserted yourself. If the troop committee members approached you with these concerns, you could have advised them on how to effect change through the troop committee. If changes in unit leadership were needed, they needed to put their big boy pants on and make it happen. Frankly,the TLT issue is only a symptom of the real problem, and a fairly minor symptom at that. The real issue is the lack of effective adult leadership. Where is the COR in all this? Mediating conflicts between the committee and SM, assuring the quality of the program and recruiting new leadership is the COR's responsibility. Who is going to be the new CC? What's the transition plan? Who is going to take over as the new SM when the old guy gets tired of the criticism and meddling? How many of the whiney parents are serving as ASMs? Why haven't they stepped up and helped the SM with training? The solutions to the troops problems must come from within, not from the commissioner corps. If not, it needs to fold and the Scouts transferred to a functioning unit.

WOAH! Are you the UC or the COR? Frankly, buster, I'd bounce your butt out of my campsite faster that you can say "silver epaulettes." It's not your dad-gummed job to dictate to a SM how he trains he youth leaders. Maybe he DOES need to work on camp cleaning with the troop. Maybe the SM has determined his youth leaders need more work on basic skills than discussing "communications theory". But it's none of your business. If you gave him a copy of the JLT syllabus, you've done your job. Now back off. Undermining the SM by ginning up a group of "concerned dads" is WAAAAY over the line. As a SM I'd be on the phone with the DC letting him know you are no longer welcome at our troop. There are many ways to teach leadership. Following the national TLT syllabus is just one. I'm not surprised troops don't use the syllabus. Until the latest one came out, the program was the pits -- a stack of business cards with job descriptions and 15 minute program for discussion the job description with the Scouts. Years ago, I wrote our own day-long syllabus for our troop to use. Actually, it is very similar to the new national syllabus. But we change it every year, in part to keep it fresh for the Scouts who have take it several times, but also to focus on program elements the leadership believes is important or perhaps the troop needs to brush up on. We've used the program to introduce the youth leaders to new methods and procedures. When we thought the troop was slipping in the quality of camp cooking, we use dinner at the end of TLT to challenge the boys to try new things. Guess what, one year we had a session on camp clean up when we changed the way we did thing.

It's not that I don't care, I just don't think it's my business or my job. Seems like that's what parents are for. How would you suggest going about enforcing this?

And the sun still set in the west this evening....

After two years of asking, it sound to me you have your answer. As a SM, I'd quit returning your phone calls. TLT isn't a requirement. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat besides a formal, sit-down classroom session. Perhaps the SM feels he has youth leadership training otherwise covered. BSA shot its own foot. For years the JLT syllabus consisted of a stack of business cards with job descriptions. I wrote out own day long syllabus several years ago which is very similar to the current BSA one. Few troops could do that and not many used the silly business card thing. While the new syllabus is a huge improvement, it does take some preparation. (And honestly, if it were more "shovel ready" out of the box, we'd be complaining it was too canned and inflexible. The preparation time is where you make the presentations you own and adapt them to your troop).

I thought I commented, Stosh, don't know where it went.... No picking taken, but, yeah, that's exactly my point and one I've been making around here for years. Part of my job is to make sure the Scouts get the most out of the program. If we allow the expectation to develop that Scouting is to be "completed" as quickly as possible, they are not getting the most out of the program. We're not selling a product, we're selling an experience. Do you go on vacation and try to blow through all the activities so you can get back to work as soon as possible?

Ditto what Fred said. My earlier issue, when the SE absorbed/repurposed/stole the money from the day camp budget before I got my receipts in, it was my DE who went to him and made it right. But given your experience, BD, seems like #4 is the pick of the litter.

Scouting with no advancement.... Hmmmm.... Isn't that what KDD's describing for the boys in his troop over age 14? My whole reason for slowing the mad rush to Eagle by 14 is specifically to KEEP advancement out there as a carrot for the 15, 16 and 17 year olds. Earning Eagle is a big motivation for Scouts. Now whether they've internalize the intrinsic value of the program, think it will help them get into college or because their mama's wailing on them is another story. Advancement is one leg of the three legged stool which keeps boys in the program. (Actually, the stool has a lot of legs, but work with me here on the analogy.) When you knock one leg off, either by fiat or by "completing" the program at a young age, we lose boys. Certainly there are other elements of the program which attract and keep Scouts, but advancement is certainly on of them. BD -- I suspect that some point someone put a great deal of effort to develop a troop culture of organic advancement. Like an organic garden, it takes time and effort to get established and is mostly self-sustaining once it is. Also like an organic garden, you have to be vigilant. A very few boys and/or leaders can reignite that competitive race to the finish.

I ran day camp for years, have taught day camp administration at National Camping School and been responsible for day camp appraisals (inspections) for the council. A great theme can add a lot to the program. I've visited many day camps and have seen how a cool theme can add a unique element to the program which the Scouts wouldn't have otherwise. But I've always thought the adults put a lot more emphasis into the themes than the kids do. If the kids are having fun with mad science at one station then learning to throw a lasso at a Wild West station 30 minutes later, they don't care. I wouldn't get too bent about folding the theme into every single station. If you find something which works, fine. If not, the kids will have fun simply shooting bbs and archery.

No, that's exactly my point, Stosh and one I've been making here for years. Far too many parents see the program that way. I've had parents tell me they want their son to "finish" scouts by the eighth grade so they can focus on sports in high school or show up their first troop meeting with a 3" binder containing their son's 30 month plan to Eagle. With that as your goal, adults setting up programs like First Year-First Class, merit badge universities and talk of "getting you money's worth of merit badges at summer camp" is just good, efficient, productive time management.