Twocubdad

How does camp get cancelled due to rain?!?!?

You have to figure that if he can deal with it coming from his wife, you can probably put up with her nonsense, too, huh?

Anyone heard from the flat-tailed rat since the Big Conversion? Anyone have a way of contacting him and letting him know things have improved? Or maybe his doctor changed his meds and he doesn't need this anymore.

The old system had a button for showing all threads active in the past 24 hours. Shortly after the conversion, you guys added a similar button to this system, but it has gone away during the various updates. Can we have it back? Or can someone explain how to use the filter function to get the same result? I see how to do that on each individual topic, but what the old buttons did was provided that across all topics and threads. Unless someone has figure out something above my pay grade, I'm having to open each topic to see if there are any active threads below the one which is featured on the main page. Kind of a pain.

In our unit the only conversations I have are during SM conferences when we discuss "reverent" and "duty to God." Those discussions are based on following the guidelines of YOUR faith as taught by your family. Of course what goes on among the boys around their campfire is another story. We usually have a Scouts' Own service Sunday mornings on campouts. We often conclude with a reminder that a Scouts' Own service is really just a time of reflection and reminding ourselves of our common promise to do our Duty to God. We also note that a Scouts' Own doesn't replace attendance at a real worship service and Scouts should do their best to attend to the obligations of their faith. Never been a problem in the troop, but a few years ago a very Evangelical unit volunteered to run the Scouts' Own at a district camporee. I wasn't there but I understand it was a real Hellfire and Brimstone service. Whether or not the snakes were native or part of the service is a bit unclear . A number of folks left the service. The next Roundtable included instruction on the purpose of a Scouts' Own which only seemed to add fuel to the fire. Thereafter the Evangelicals hold their own service, some troops hold their own in their campsite, others continue with the generic Scouts' Own and some troops break camp and go home. It's a shame folks can't sit together for 15 minutes, have a silent prayer, sing God Bless America without either forcing themselves on others or getting their shorts in a wad.

Don't count on the bank protecting you. I don't know much about good banking practices, but six months ago I went to the bank with our new treasurer and CC and on my word alone we replaced the old CC and treasurer with the new. I am also a signatory on the account. I've done this several times over the years. Beyond that I have two thoughts -- first is here is a whole lot more to this story. If I has suspicions about a treasurer, I would handle things precisely as described. Change the accounts first, then tell people about it. Second, if the situation is exactly as you describe, concerns, then why the heck are you hanging around? Get as far away from these folks as you can as quickly as you can. I would keep copies of all records and documentation for your own protection.

We could probably send a limo and pick the boys up at home, too. Or better yet, send patrols of Boy Scouts to each Webelos house and camp in their backyard. Parents would neither be inconvenienced or worried about where Dear Sweet Thing went. Either your son is going to join Boy Scouts or he isn't. Make a decision and we'll move on from there. The campout was turn key. All you have to do is drop him off at the Scout House Saturday morning. The Webelos camp under Webelos guidelines, which mean they are allowed to camp with their den and Den Leaders. Parents aren't required to camp, but we do strongly encourage it. While the Boy Scouts are working with the Webelos, the troop leaders spend the weekend working with the Webelos parent to explain how Scouting and our troop work. I would think that would be a strong incentive for the parents to attend and learn about what they're signing their son up for. And anyone who wants to go home at the end of the day is welcome to do so. The ski trip cost $28 including lift tickets, equipment rental and an hour of instruction. We provided transportation. The council trip cost $65, you have to drive 3.5 hours to WVa and probably pay for a room. Plenty of folks attend that. Oh, we also had a free orienteering hike in January and a one-night campout the Webs were invited to. No one attended. Now three months since crossover, I'm learning the big problem was the DL who seems to have checked out a year or more ago. No one knew much about the programs and there was certainly no sense of urgency communicated to the Webelos that the outings were required for AOL. But the parents were more than willing to sit back and be catered to. None of them showed much concern, either.

The troop puts a lot of effort into planning a campout in the fall just for the Webelos2s. This year only 2 of 14 attended (yes, I was a bit miffed.) We invited them to day trip skiing in January and I don't think anyone attended. About the same time we invited them to visit a troop meeting, too. Most came to that. Shortly thereafter I got an email from the WDL asking if the troop meeting counted for the outdoor program with the troop. Umm, NO! But I held my piece and told him it was his call. Of course a month later everyone of them received AOL at crossover. And no, they didn't meet with another troop. I guess you only have to complete the requirement you and/or your DL has time for.

I'm lost. Is the person in the OP the CM's wife? If she resigned, hand her her hat and bolt the door.

Is extending his term an option? With a very specific list of markers he has to hit?

This is covered in National Camp School training required of your camp director and program director. Operation of your "tot lot" program is included in the camp standards you are required to meet. Most notably you have to have two-deep leadership assigned to the tots, one of whom is 21+. Talk to your camp director or program director. They should be helping you develop the program, not just saying, "here watch these four kids for us." But to answer your question, with four kids 3-5, just do the stuff you would do if you were watching a friend's kids -- crafts, snacks, a wading pool, squirt guns, playing ball, playground time if one is available, etc. When I was a camp director we had as many as 85 siblings in the tot lot program and sometimes 20 or more adults on that program staff. We had a great volunteer who ran the program for several years. She developed a program appropriate for the age of the tots. When it worked, we would slide the tots I into the regular program rotation with the Cubs, although not everything the Cubs are doing is age-appropriate for them. We also had Cub-aged sisters who are just as interested in the regular camp programs as their brothers. For them, we found a couple moms who were year-round GSUSA leaders, put all the girls in a den slotted them in the camp rotation just like the boys. The ladies in charge adapted the Cub program to the Girls Scouts so the girls could work on GS requirements. We also had girls serving as junior staff members just like the Boy Scouts (ages 11+). Many of them volunteered for the tot lot, although some of them were insulted at the suggestion, too.

This takes an understanding of how a pack works. Pack leadership is a collection of folks doing their jobs toward a common purpose. This is why well-functioning pack committees don't vote on stuff. The person responsible for a task simply gets the job done and reports back. Input and coordination between committee members, when appropriate and desirable, is typically accomplished at committee meetings. If "that parent" is responsible for the Pine Wood Derby, then they get to have it their way, subject to the approval of the Cubmaster, who is ultimately responsible for program. If you are pack treasurer and want to change banks, you get to have it your way, subject to the committee chairman, and in this case, the chartered organization. Now this doesn't mean folks don't have to play nicely together. If the PWD chairman expects help and participation, he/she best be building consensus toward the program. Just because he wants to have the race at 10:30 on a weekday morning doesn't mean anyone else will support him. If "those parents" are operating under the delusion they get to have EVERYTHING their way, someone in the pack -- CC or CM -- needs to grow a pair and tell them to pound sand. Sooner or later folks do the math and figure out if you are a net provider or consumer of services. If an adult volunteer is a net consumer, we have no reason to keep them around. We are here to serve youth, not create volunteer opportunities for adults -- or provide audiences for their tirades, for that matter. Assuming you are just one of the nameless rabble having to put up with their stuff, let the CC know you will no longer tolerate their behavior and the CC needs to decide which of you he wants as a volunteer. Raise the price of putting up with them and the leadership will make a change. Or not. In which case you take your services elsewhere and your problem is still solved.

You must be new. There's nothing you can say at the beginning of the MEETING that won't be ignored or forgotten by half the group.

One of the sections I didn't cite allows for using "monsters" as targets. Perhaps your mad scientist qualifies as a monster?

Absolutely not. I was using that as an example, but wasn't clear it's a bad example. I wasn't really trying to go down this path, but in a small, young troop, the SM -- at minimum -- needs to have "advice and consent" participation in the patrol assignment process specifically to prevent hero/zero patrols or those with 10 guys in one patrol and the two "losers" in another. When you have more patrols and more mature Scouts, those sorts of problems will average themselves out somewhat automatically. My point was that I think it appropriate for a SM to have move of a hand with the former troop but with the latter the SM can more comfortably stay out of the way. We need to give our Scouts the opportunity to succeed Allowing a "zero" patrol to stand is setting up that patrol for uncontrolled failure. Of course the other side of the coin was Stosh's example of a two man patrol which he gave enough rope to hang itself. I know Stosh is a smart enough SM that he wouldn't have allowed the two-man patrol if he wasn't reasonably comfortable that their ultimate failure would become a learning experience not a disaster.

We've never dropped anyone over the Scout or family's objection, but it is a possibility. We have accepted dues only after a SM conference with the Scout and parents regarding our expectations. I know showing up at an Eagle appeal board of review with the "contract" a Scout agreed to probably isn't worth a pitcher of warm spit, but we have set specific conditions on Scouts returning with a short time to Eagle. We've not yet been burned but it could happen. Generally we're more passive aggressive with the process. One of the early steps to recharter is me going through the roster and marking out the boys who have been inactive for a long period without any contact, We just don't contact them about rechartering. The few on that list who contact us are the ones we talk to before accepting their dues.

Unfortunately, you've picked a tough time to try and join a Cub pack. At best, packs go to a once-a-month meeting schedule during the summer and some don't meet at all. Plus you're dealing with leaders vacation schedule in trying to get a phone call. As said before, try to contact your local Scout office for a referral to one or more packs in your area. If you have the opportunity to visit with them over the summer, great. If not, many packs and councils have their big recruiting drives just after school starts. Here, all the packs have a common recruiting night at the local schools. You get a chance to meet leaders of several packs and make a decision about which one to join. But here's my real advice -- have your son ask around with his friends while you talk with their parents. The number one key to being happy with a pack or troop, staying with the program and being successful with it is being in a unit with your friends. Go where his friends are or at least where he knows people. To your question, go with his grade this fall. Most packs "move up" at the end of the school year, not the beginning of the next. Cub Scouting is grade based, so if he's a rising first grader he will be a Tiger; a rising second grader, a Wolf, third grade a Bear. And sorry about BeAScout. From a curmudgeonly old Scoutmaster, it is a ill-conceived attempt by BSA to drive membership recruitment from the top down. Unfortunately, joining a Cub pack is a bottom-up process. The problem is your son doesn't join "Cub Scouts." He will join "A" local Cub Scout pack. There is no reason for you to complete an application on line. Find the pack you like, one where your son has friends and the leaders there will help you with the membership process and application.

The title of this thread should really be: Who Chooses Patrols, Dad or Scout?" So Johnny want's to be in the patrol with the "fun guys" (are they from Mt. Pilot?) And who wouldn't? Dad aspires for Johnny to be -- or at least to be known as -- a "serious Scout" and wants him in the Serious Scout patrol. Well 'at rite thar's yur pob'um! Seems to me you've done a reasonable job of accommodating things. In eight years I don't think we have used the same method of organizing patrols twice and we've never, ever, not once made everyone happy. Bad news is that it's your ASM that's unhappy. In a two patrol troop patrols do tend to be a bit binary -- heros and zeros and BD says. If you can't stand Patrol Leader A, patrol B is your only option. As the troop grows, it's actually easier to find a patrol you're can deal with. If you hate Patrol A, but can choose B, C, D, E or F..... You need to find a PC way of breaking the news to the ASM you're going with the roster as announced. Buy him a cold beverage and explain to him that what's best for the troop long term is for the boys to start making their own decisions. Give him a reason to agree with you with some good, sound Scouting principles and reasons why this is okay. Point out that it's not forever. That in the Loser Pat..... I mean the Fun Kid Patrol his son will have a better chance for his genetically superior leadership abilities to rise to the top. And besides, I'll lay even odds he's actually okay with the patrols but he is getting heat at home from mama.

I could be convinced it's okay in fairly narrow circumstances, but this is getting outside those circumstances. First of all, why the heck are mom and dad both going to WRC? Are they den leaders? One of the purposes of WRC is for the boys to go to camp with their den and leaders (as they will in Boy Scouts next year), NOT cub family camping. Secondly, I find it distasteful at minimum for the parents to spend money on themselves out of their son's account. But it would be difficult to say no without knowing all the policies you have for the accounts. Knowing a little about the family's financial situation may make a difference, too. That said, I can also imagine a circumstance where the a crew raises money to send the entire crew to Philmont. Leaders pay the same airfare and fees as the boys, and God knows they put in the same (or more) hours of prep and fundraising time. In that case it seems reasonable that the crew money goes toward paying for the entire crew's expenses, adults included. But that's very specific, limited circumstance. Yours, BD, is more of an open-ended opportunity for the parents to raid the cookie jar. This why I don't like scout accounts. Seems like there is always one more way folks want to spend the money. By the way, I also have an issue with parents who want to go on the "fun" trips but are too busy to help with routine campouts. But I'm not sure you can fix that via the use of SA money.

How many rainbow-colored donkeys have you ever seen? It rather defies logic that you can't shoot arrows at a piñata but you can bash the snot out of it with a stick. I searched "animals" in the Shooting Sports Manual and got two hits: From the BSA Shooting Sports Manual, Section V, Cub Scout Shooting Sports: Chapter 10, "Archery" Page 78,"Archery Games and Activities", Spin the Insect A picture of an insect is glued to a piece of plywood 12inches square. The plywood is fastened so it will pivot freely around a centered bar set from post to post when struck with an arrow. Chapter 12, "Other Shooting Sports," Page 96, "Catapults and other Devices, "Targets may be made similar to those for archery and BB gun shooting. Creative targets may also be made that relate to the camp theme. Targets should not look like humans or animals." So you can shoot insect animals in archery but no animals with a catapult. Seems perfectly logical to me. We've discussed this in past years. This has nothing to do with safety, just political correctness. Do what you want. Sounds like fun to me.

Knowing a little about your troop's economic situation, I suppose if parents need help with the cost of volunteering, I would be okay with it. But I wouldn't want the adults to compete with the Scouts for sales or take a share of the money the troop earns as a whole.

Yep. Hence my advice to hold your nose and sign the app.

You bring up a good point that the requirement is for a position of responsibility not necessarily leadership, per se. The Scouts you describe may do a great job as quartermaster, scribe or historian without necessarily exercising a great deal of true leadership or even interaction with the other boys. There is certainly a lot of flexibility in the option (which is obviously it's purpose), but out of simple fairness, the scope of the project needs to be on a par with a 4-6 month POR. Leading a group on a one-day clean up project could easily be lesser in scope than what the PL puts into one of six monthly campouts. But, then again, maybe not. Our troop's participation in Scouting for Food is a huge undertaking and is run by one of our senior Scouts. It is on a par with an Eagle project. The Scouts who run it start planning at least three months out. They deal with the town, the council, the cub leaders (the pack coordinates with us on the collection), publicity, follow-up, etc. etc. In the two years we've run it this way, the two Scouts who have run it did so out of a desire to lead and serve, not advancement credit. But I would absolutely give POR credit for it. But we would probably call them ASPL/Scouting for Food and avoid the issue entirely.

Mostly you're toast. Are the activity and POR signed off in his handbook? If so, they're complete and off the table. But since you stipulate the requirements were met in 2010, it would be disingenuous to hold him up on that now whether it's been signed or not. Who signed his project proposal for the troop? It requires signatures by both the SM and committee? If it were approved without unit approval, I'd be raising holy terror with the Eagle committee. But I'm not sure what your recourse there is. That situation isn't addressed in the Guide to Advancement (and you REALLY need to buy or download a copy and read it). I suppose it could give you the opportunity to hold the kids feet to the fire to gain you approval of his project, but if the committee has already given it's okay, on what grounds would you hold it up? You can go off reservation and just refuse to play ball with the Scout. If you haven't seen him in 2.5 years, he's not a member of the troop. That his mom mails in a check for $15 every year doesn't matter to you. Unfortunately the $15 check does matter to the council and he is a member. This approach is going to put you in a bad light of not following the rules yourself and probably get you several concerned visits from the advancement committee, and/or the mythical Unit Commissioner. And the kid will likely get Eagle from the Council on appeal anyway. Bottom line, is there is little you can do at this point. Troop's defense against this sort of "career track" is proactive. You have to build a troop program which doesn't permit this. Once you let it slide, it's hard to fix. Some of the stuff you should have done: Set and enforce reasonable attendance/activity standards for attendance up front. Until the new Guide to Advancement came out, units could not do this, but the new policy allows units to set their own standards for attendance as long as they are reasonable and are made known in advance. (But even then the policy includes a number escape hatches for the Scout and hoops for the troop to jump.) Don't recharter the kid. If he's not an active member of the troop, simply drop him. If his mom mails in a check you don't have to accept it. Sounds like this kid actually served his POR, but if you have a Scout marking time in a no-show POR, you have to remove him BEFORE the time is completed. The time counts whether he does a good job, bad job or no job. Yes, this means a Scout can serve two months and get fired, serve two more months and get fired then serve two more months and get fired and will have met the requirement. Welcome to the world of high-speed, low-drag advancement. But here's my best advice to you. When the time comes, hold your nose and sign the Eagle application. At this point, this isn't a hill you need to die for and, trust me, you will die on it. Been there, got the t-shirt, patch, hat and scars.

I suppose you can apply "or" to whatever part of the main requirement you wish. If you read that to make the time period optional too, that's the SM's call. And I can imagine situations where that would be appropriate -- like a really intense leadership project which packs a great deal of effort into smaller time frame, or a scout whose time is running out through no fault of his own. But if the Scout simply procrastinated or didn't take advantage of leadership opportunities when they were presented, why would you turn the option into a get out of jail card?