Twocubdad

I've always noticed that on a weekender, that on the first night, the boys are too excited to sleep. On the second, they're too tired not to. How about this -- suggest to the SPL and PLs that they assign breakfast fire and cooking duty to the late risers. Insist that those boys do the work themselves. Having six of their cold, hungry buddies outside their tent should encourage them to get up. Peer pressure can be a good thing.

Our Pack campouts are very similar to what Pack38Scouter described. We camped this past weekend and had about 80 boys and 50 adults for one part of the weekend or another. We don't try to segregate by den or rank. The families just pitch their tent where ever. We usually have several formal program sessions -- usually working on beltloop. We try to have one breakout session where the boys work on rank advancements. Our Cubmaster runs the campfire and we try to leave time in the afternoon where the dens or other groups can plan skits. Two rules -- nothing too scary, and no bathroom jokes. Food is a different story. When I joined the Pack they all cooked individually. Although we had significantly fewer campers then, that was a real hassle with mutiple cook fires scattered all over. It's also intimidating for a newby parent to have to worry about cooking. Setting up a tent is one thing, but camp cooking scared a lot of folks if they hadn't done it before. We got a lot of Poptart breakfasts and Beanie-weanie dinners. Now, the Pack provides the food for everyone. This weekend, we charged $7 for four meals. But we're somewhat a victim of our own success. Shopping and cooking all weekend for 130 people is a HUGE job for several people. At our next committee meeting, we're going to have to talk a better way to structure things.

I received my Eagle along with five other guys -- we had a total of 13 in our troop that year. A local businessman and old Eagle Scout did the presentation, but no other big speeches or individual elements. That was in '73 and most of our troop was attending Jamboree -- no one wanted to be the low-man. Later in the year we had another big flock as the requirements changed on Dec. 31. They increased the number of merit badges to 24 and some other stupid stuff, like dropping camping and cooking a required MBs. I thought that was the norm until two years ago I went to see a cousin receive his bird. BIG DEAL! Had local politicians give speaches, read letters from the President, Senators and Congressmen, everyone from his Wolf Den Leader on up spoke. All followed by a big catered dinner. It was like going to a wedding.

Looking at page four of the green Guide to Safe Scouting, under the sub-section No secret organizations, it says in bold type: All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. Hard to observe a program if you cant attend it. The CO has the right to approve or deny registering someone as a leader, but unless the boy's membership is revoked, how do you remove someone as a Scout parent? (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Is it not a basic policy of BSA that all Scout functions are always open to all parents? If a mom agrees to abide by the Youth Protection rules, stick with the adult patrol, leave the boys alone, not hover, use an electric air mattress or commit any of the other sins of parental excess mentioned here, how can a unit prohibit them from attending?

Dens can meet just about anywhere that's practical -- see chapter 20 of the Cub Scout Leader book. Most of our dens meet at our CO in the Sunday school rooms. If a den wants to meet off-site, we ask that the den leader let the committee know. Tiger Cubs may meet at the home of the host Tiger/partner, but I'm not aware of any local dens that do that. Seems to me keeping up with a new location and providing directions for every meeting would be a hassle.

Thanks for all the good info. Since this will be a Cub campout, every kid will have a parent, so we'll be well supervised. I had also thought of using charcoal -- easier to control and replinish, if needed.

Does anyone have a good way of identifying/tracking hobo dinners? Will a name written on the foil with a marker survive the fire? We've got about 30 boys camping in two weeks and are planning to let them make hobo dinners to satisfy their Outdoorsman and Wolf cooking requirements. If we prepare them identically en masse, that defeats the purpose of them making their own dinners. But if we do it individually, then we need someway to keep track of them. To avoid having hot coals scattered across two acres, we need to cook them together in one fire pit. Is there a good way to know when the dinners are done? How long should they cook? I know to keep the veggies cut small. Ideas?

Doesn't seem to, but we've had it sewn on the new blue uniform for only a week or two now. I'll let you know.

Our Tiger badges were peel and stick and were no problem afixing to the totems. Of course that meant they had to be sewn, not ironed, to the uniform. If for some reason you have a batch that must be glued to the totem, try hot glue, but first rough-up the space on the diamond with sand paper for a better bite.

One more point -- Venturer2002, you wrote, "The phrase "under god" can mean what you want it to..." No, it can't. First of all, the plain meaning of the words does mean something. I won't bore you with a quote from Websters, but "under God" means subservient to God. Secondly, look back at the earlier posts regarding the original legislative intent of the words. It was intended to differentiate us from the "godless commies." And lastly, as a religious person, why would you want it to mean "anything you want it to"? If can mean anything, then it means nothing. If it has no meaning, then why included it in the Pledge? When you recite "one nation under God," don't you want it to mean exactly that?

Jefferson also wrote; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." On balance, I'd say Ol' Tom didn't do too bad. Regarding this idiot high school principal, every year or so something like this hits the media. Some bozo badly mis-applies a particular court ruling, usually regarding school prayer. A couple years ago it was some kid who was prohibited from having a Bible in his locker. Before that it was a teacher who stopped a student from silently blessing his lunch. The whole "Meet Me At the Flagpole" movement was started when a prayer group was improperly prohibited from meeting in the school. None of which is prohibited by the courts. I honestly think some of this is an attempt to maliciously stir up controversy. At least I hope these people really aren't this stupid.

A very timely question in that I took Webelos Outdoor Training this weekend and just walked in the door from our den -- er, patrol -- meeting which was spent tying knots and learning to set up tents. The other Webelos leader in our Pack is also an ASM with the Scout troop. He has the same complaint. We've made it a program focus for our Pack to better prepare our Webelos for Scout camping. We're going to spend extra time teaching camping skills in den meetings and are also planning one or two Webelos-only campouts. While I think that's great, and the boy are really looking forward to it, I have to wonder if it's really the way it should work. I'm not really up to speed on the current Boy Scout program, in my day those were the skills you learned as a Tenderfoot, Second and First Class Scout. Is that not still the focus for these ranks? What about a kid who comes into a Troop with no Webelos experience?

If the BBs are done correctly -- at an approved camp with certified instructors, etc. -- it will be the highlight of the weekend. Your boy will love it. The program is extra safe and a very good learning experience. Not to toss another wet blanket on your plans, but you mentioned canoeing as an alternative. Cub Scouts are not permitted to use canoes, either. Rowboats are okay, but not canoes. Similar procedures apply as to facilities and trained supervision. Back to your original question. If you don't have a sleeping bag yet, you can get a acrylic fleece bag for about $15 at Wal-mart. Cubs don't do much cold weather camping so they are fine. If you think it may be cool, take an extra blanket. Menu ideas -- let the boys make their own hobo dinners (carrots, potatoes, onions, hamburger, ketchup and seasoning wrapped in foil and cooked in the coals.) It part of the Wolf requirements. For breakfast, a big pot of oatmeal, grits or (depending where you live, cream of wheat) makes an easy hot breakfast. Cinnamom rolls are okay, but wrap them in foil and warm them up near the fire and they're not quite so yucky. If you're not accustomed to cooking over a camp fire, take charcoal. It's easier to start and control -- but no liquid lighter fluid! It's not permitted by the BSA. Other that the normal pots and pans you think you'll need, be sure to take a camp grill to set over the fire and put the pots and pans on. Balancing a pot of boiling water on a rock is a good way to have neither hot water or a fire. Pot tongs or long pliers are important and leather work gloves or welders gloves are nice to have. Speaking of hobo dinners. Does anyone know the difference between a hobo and a bum? A hobo is a guy who rides in a boxcar and plays the harmonica. A bum is someone making $4.3 million averaging 1.7 yards per carry. (A little football humor, sorry.)

I called and got the dates for the southeast region. These are only the ones near me not all -- March 14-16, Browns Summitt, NC (Greensboro) March 21-23, Leesville, SC (Columbia) April 4-6 Covington, GA (Atlanta) I think the other dates are after these. There is no registration info out yet, but they have set these dates.

Thanks for the link to the emblems. We had our first Webelos I meeting tonight and the boys voted that we're now the "Crazy Silver Shark" patrol -- with the one added caveat that the Den Leaders have the right to limit how "crazy" they get.

Ditto.

Exactly, Rooster. One of the reasons I like the payment request/check request is that it keeps the approval or disapproval of an expenditure from being a personal thing between the treasurer and the person requesting the check. She simply receives the request, notes whether or not there is sufficient funds in the budget to cover the expense and forwards it to the CC for approval. I'd even present the forms to the CC during the committee meeting as part of the treasurer's report. That way, if the CC is the one not following the budget, it gets it in front of the committee without the treasurer having to be a nag about it. In a healty Pack situation, all the treasurer would have to do is pick up the phone and let the den leader know they're over budget. And assuming is not a huge or recurring expense, the Pack hopefully has funds to cover the overage. But it sounds like Cubmom is getting dumped on. In her situation, there needs to be some procedure to keep her from constantly being in the middle.

Bob White's point in the second paragraph, above, is exactly the one I was trying to make in my post regrading the Kentucky autistic Scout. It's a wise person -- much less Scouter -- who knows their limitations. As far as my expectations, I think there are two things to consider: first, is a matter of informed consent. From the scant information in the post about the Kentucky situation, it doesn't seem the mother did much to educate the Scoutmaster about her son's condition. At Cub Scout day camp we had a boy who's parents noted that he was ADHD on the medical form -- no mention of being prone to violent outbursts. It took three men, one of whom was badly bitten, to restrain the boy and carry him to headquarters. I won't say that this boy shouldn't have been at camp or shouldn't have been in Scouts, but the parents sure as heck had a responsibility to provide more information and possibly be at camp to deal with him. The other thing I think a good Scout leader would consider is the overall impact on his unit. How severe are the boy's disabilities? Are there sufficient numbers of leaders available to work with the boy? What kind of help will his parents provide? Does the Scoutmaster feel personally equipped to deal with the boy? What is the maturity level of the rest of the Troop? How will the other boys deal with the situation? The leaders needs to honestly assess the situation and decide what's best for the Troop. If their judgement is that they just can't handle a particular boy, I don't think a lot of second-guessing is appropriate. Having a Scout in the Troop with physical or mental disabilities can be a very positive experience for both the disabled boy and the other Scouts. But I think boy with severe emotional or behavioral problems could be much more of a challenge. But I'll admit that I know very little about disabilities and that's just layman's view.

I agree with everything that's been said about this situation so far. There needs to be a place in Scouting for this boy. But put yourself in the Scoutmaster's uniform for a mintute. Shouldn't he have the opportunity to say "Sorry folks, this just isn't what I signed up for." Not everyone has the patience, the aptitude or the interest to deal with this child. (Frankly, you could say the same thing about teaching middle school math.) I don't think it's a character flaw for this guy to admit it. In a perfect world, the Troop would welcome this boy with open arms. He would never get teased, and the leaders would all have the patience and training to incorporate him into the Troop seamlessly. So what happens in a less that perfect world? You get vilified in the press for "booting" this poor kid? Asked to resign as Scoutmaster? Labeled as a badguy? What about the other boys who have now had their Troop trashed?

I don't necessarily agree that treasurer should bear the burden of policing the budget. The committee chairman and, to a lesser degree, Cubmaster needs to do the heavy lifting. As treasurer, I think you can jump up and down at committee meetings as to budget and procedure, but when it comes to butting heads with an individual Den Leader, that's not your job. As a CC myself, I certainly wouldn't ask my treasurer to do it. Here's a suggestion. Develop a check request/reimbursement form and require that it be signed by you, and the CC and/or CM before a check is written. Set up a procedure where by you receive the requests first and then pass them along to the CC. If a expense puts a den over budget, you make a note to that effect at the bottom of the form. If nothing else, that puts the onus on the CC to deal with the budget and the Den Leader.

Do you have these expenses budgeted? If not, they need to be. In our Pack we budget $20 per boy per year for Den expenses. In a Den with eight boys, that's $160 per year the Den Leader can spend as they see fit. Rarely, however, do the Dens spend all their money. Most expenses are less than $10 and the Den Leaders often pay it and never turn in the receipts. On the other hand, we had one Den that needed additional money for a service project at our Chartered Organization. They presented the request to the Pack committee and we approved it. Personally,I question spending Pack money on snacks. Most of our Dens are getting away from snacks, mainly because they meet in the evenings, just after dinner. If you're going to have snacks, why not ask the parents to take turns providing them. Money aside, the Den Leader doesn't need the added hassle of buying and dealing with snacks every week.

Yo, Bob, a question about commissioners. At our District Committee's planning conference awhile back, our DC said one of his goals was to re-organize the commissioner corps so that UCs don't necessarily serve their "home" units. Sounds like a good idea, since commissioners sometimes need to serve as a disinterested brokers when problems arise. Two weeks later, the same DC called my Cubmaster to let him know that the Pack needs to recruit a new UC for ourselves. The position has been vacant for nearly a year and "under-filled" for a long time before that. Which approach is right and/or best. In either event, I don't think it's the unit's responsibility to find it's own UC, although I would like to have some input as to who it is. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

You're exactly right that the matter was not looked into thoroughly. That is precisely why the SE should be involved. But let's not get too full of ourselves here. We can debate an issue as an academic exercise, but we're never going to have enough information to make a real decision. We're lucky to get one complete point of view, much less two. That's just a limitation of the medium. I hope that's understood by anyone looking for advice from the group. I will say that in this instance we probably have more information to go on than most since the older boy essentially agreed with the younger scout's version.

Yaworski -- YOU contacted the ACLU!?!?!?