Twocubdad

I'll agree with you that the process of requesting and collecting references is an important life skill. But it that's the focus, we need to do a better job of teaching the Scouts how to go about it. I once received the following text: "mr tcd can I use you for a reference" . While I give the follow credit for at least asking (I've been called by potential employers of Scouts how haven't asked), my initial reaction was "hell no." Upon reflection I responded with, "Who is this?" Kids who believe they occupy he center of the universe also tend to believe EVERYONE has them in their directory. I usually give my Scouts a rundown on how to ask -- ask personally, by phone or with a letter (like printed on paper). Give the person an addressed, STAMPED envelope. Follow up with a thank you note -- you've just been given a whale of a gift. Q -- guide to advancement is specific that the Scouts are not permitted to even handle the letters and the unit leaders are to submit them sealed. To accomplish this, I've give my Eagle candidates a Word document with an envelop the need to use. The envelop is addressed to me and obviously identifies it as an Eagle reference. I've gotten my knuckles rapped for accidently opening reference letters which show up in my mail box. The letters also include the references' names so we know who to follow up with when we're short. I don't mind references per se, but it's this level of bureaucracy and BS which tips them into "not worth the trouble" territory.

Self esteem is over rated. More important are the other people and principles you hold in high esteem.

Pack -- did you read the article? It was their mom delivering their new sister. I hope their insurance covers psychological services.

Reference letters from parents are just silly. The good news is they are the only letters we can count on receiving in a timely fashion. Our council was one at which the new rules were directed (i.e.: Scouts aren't expected to chase references for letters nor can an app or BOR be held up waiting on letters.) Still, the council requires the five letters be submitted with the Eagle application and stipulates that the unit is responsible for chasing them. These letters are a huge PIA. I tell Eagle candidates the first thing the need to do upon finishing the requirements it to start in on the reference letters. They are, by far, the most aggravating part of completing the application process. It takes weeks -- frequently four to six weeks and sometimes longer -- for the letters to come in. Since this fool's task has been dumped on the unit, our policy is for the Scout to give the reference a letter requesting a letter with a stamped envelope attached addressed to me, the SM. If the letter is not forthcoming in a couple weeks, as a courtesy to the reference, I ask the Scout to follow up one time (although that is technically against advancement policy.) If the letter doesn't arrive shortly thereafter, I'll may make one follow-up call myself, but usually attach a note to the application stating we have followed national policy on trying to obtain the letter but the lack of response is now delaying the application. I went toe-to-toe a couple times with the person at council who processes the applications over this. Finally I pulled a copy of the Guide to Advancement off the shelf, asked to speak to the Asst SE who advises the council advancement committee and told him he could either accept the application or I would submit it to national as an appeal. (He took it.) Of course, I'm not allowed to see the letters (the levels of confidentiality are silly, too) but all my Eagle board members tell me they have never seen a letter which added to the process. Think about it: the kid has been working at a burger joint for three months. He had the teacher for nine. Maybe the same coach for a couple seasons. We've know him since he was a Tiger. What are the references going to add we don't already know?

Our patrols have the nesting cook kit of pots and pans, but each boy brings his own mess kit. We get everything from Lexan and titanium to old Cool Whip containers and Frisbees.

I wear ball caps most everywhere. I have a campaign hat I wore frequently in cubs, but not so much with the troop. I have in mind it is for formal occasions, and don't wear it out in the weather. I've got a couple Tilley's (one original and one of the new light-weight hats) I wear on outings when I need a real hat.

Coming kinda late to my own party. Just back from a long weekend in the woods. I don't really see this as a paper vs. computer issue, although that's a component. The problem is the pack is stealing from the Scouts. They are stealing an opportunity for them to learn responsibility, an opportunity to accomplish something for themselves and have the sense of satisfaction which comes from both. I've since had a dad explain their process a little more. Apparently the boys can participate in a den activity -- knot tying, for example. Maybe, maybe not they are aware there are requirements related to the activity. Whether the boys actually meet the requirements or just attend the activity, either the DL or a parent enters the completed advancement into the Scout's ScoutTrack records. When enough requirements are met, he gets the advancement. According to the dad I spoke with, the boys frequently aren't aware they've earned an award or why. I've always said the way adults ruin the program is by applying adult organization and efficiencies to things the boys can do. This is a prime example. Sure books get lost, pages fall out, they forget to remember to get things signed, but all are life lessons the boys miss if out of the sake of the adults ideas of better or improves "systems" and convenience. Yes, we're going to have to back up and train the new Scouts how advancement should work. .

I got way-laid last night by something I never saw coming. We've been dealing with a lot of frustration with this year's crop of new Scouts and their parents over the pace of advancement. Only one or two of 16 boys have made Tenderfoot since crossing over in March. Not being terribly advancement focused, I've not been too concerned, but I'm getting a lot of guff from parents. In discussing why they boys aren't getting requirement signed off in their handbooks, I learned last night that in the pack, the boys don't have their handbooks signed when they complete a requirement. Apparently, the parent logs on to the boy's ScoutTrack account and the parent updates the record. I'm not sure how this happens; whether the parents are aware of what the boy has or hasn't done, if there is some communication from the Den Leader or if the boys and the parents somehow work together. But the bottom line is these new Scouts have no concept of learning a skill, approaching a leader to be tested and then having their book signed. I've always assumed this was part of the common culture of Scouting. I've been involved in one side or the other of this process since I was eight years old. As a Scoutmaster I've learned that I have to take care to teach this to boys who join the troop with no Cub Scouting experience, but I suppose we now have to teach this to all the new Scouts. I don't get surprised often, but this was sure a shock. Anyone else seeing this? Do other packs operate this way? Is this the way Cub Scouting works these days or is our pack an outlier?

I take Whether OA to mean whether or not to volunteer, a question asked and answered. Hey, if the NA stuff doesn't trip your trigger, find something that does. But it's a step up from our lodge which does neither NA or service well, but seems to focus on "spirit" generally defined as lots of screaming, strict adherence to "themes" and making sure everyone is wearing the proper t-shirt.

I've never seen or heard of a transfer form. I thought you simply completed a membership application with the new troop and checked the "transfer" box and information. No action on the part of the old unit is necessary. Now I usually tell the incoming Scout the courteous thing to do is to let the outgoing SM know what his plans are. I have usually reached out to the other SM and let him know where the Scout has landed. But I don't thing anyone has every paid us that courtesy when a Scout transfers from us to another troop. Advancement is a non-issue. We accept what ever is in completed in the Scout's handbook. The ScoutNet records will only show completed ranks. For a Scout with no handbook and no other records, the worst case is he starts over at the last completed rank which shouldn't be a big deal.

I think qwazse is on the right track. It seems like the older Scouts are much more comfortable with "just camping". It seems to take a little maturity to appreciate just being outdoors, sitting around the campfire or hanging in your hammocks with your mates. The younger guys seem to have much greater need to be entertained -- and I do mean BE entertained. They're not much on creating their own activities. During my time as a Scout, that's the only kind of camping we knew. The only variable was how far off the road did we go. Most campouts revolved around the campfire, keeping it the fire and a pot of chili, stew or spaghetti sauce going and staying up most of the night figuring out the world amongst us. "Active" campouts were the district and council camporees which usually had a theme -- I hate themes -- and a bunch of competitions. Our goal was to make Eagle, at which point our SM allowed us to exempt out of the competitions and stay back in camp.

Any sort of chili, soup or stew is good and easy to scale up of down for the size of the group. One trick we used was to make foil dinners for the Webelos (who needed the cooking for a requirement) and use the same ingredients to make a beef stew for the rest. Large round loaves of sourdough bread are a great addition and can be warmed in a DO or in foil next to the fire. AKdenldr mentioned mountain breakfasts. We do that a frequently when have a bunch to feed. It's a good, hearty meal and all in one pot. I have a large cast-iron, casserole-shaped pan with a lid which is perfect We can serve 8 or 12 out of it. But of course a DO will work, just not as efficient. When I was CM our pack was about 120 Cubs and we would sometimes have 250 people on campouts. To serve that crow breakfast we created a "porridge bar" which was a two huge turkey fryer pots full of oatmeal and grits. The boys all HATED the thought, but we found it was because none had ever had real, cooked oatmeal of grits. Salt, pepper and butter is about all you can do with grits, but for the oatmeal we had all sorts of toppings -- of course brown sugar, but also bananas, strawberries (or any other frozen fruit), chocolate chips, etc, etc. The boys LOVE it. And you will be amazed how many people you can feed oatmeal and grits for a few bucks.

I give extra credit for quoting anything from Mel Brooks.

So the solution to retaining older Scouts it to give them the boot? Sure, we can solve the retention overnight by redefining "older" as 13 and 14. How about we learn from our mistakes? The root cause of Webelos/Boy Scout transition losses is we have created this huge opportunity for any boy/family who may have doubts about continuing on to quit. We even throw them a party and make a big deal about having achieved the pinnacle of Cub Scouting. Then we tell them if they want to continue on, they have to fill out forms, move to a different meeting schedule (a much bigger deal than most folks realize), acclimate to new leaders and a new program to figure out. And of course the parents are more wigged-out than the kids. Oh, and we do it right as the kids are going through the same stuff at school. This plan wholly replicates all those mistakes between the 8th and 9th grades.

In my experience about 25% of older scouts are interested in working with the younger boys. About half of those have the skills and aptitude for doing so. A good Troop Guide is a gem. On the other end, there are about 25% of older Scouts who have no interest in being around the younger guys at all and there always seems to be one or two who seem to have a problem with the concept of Friendly and Kind. For the 50% in the middle, it mostly depends on the individuals, especially the relative maturity of both the younger and older scouts. As to the rumored program changes, we've seen this coming for 15 years -- especially in the area of advancement. Between "first-year, First Class," the goal of one advancement per year and the general high-speed/low drag approach to advancement, there is a unstated presumption that everyone makes Eagle in four years anyway. Under a program like this, do you think there is going to be any added pressure at all to complete Eagle in the 8th grade? Fourteen will be the new 18. I can also see where the money-changers see this as a "fix" for Venturing. But my bet is loss rates between Boy Scouts and Venturing will make Webelos transition look like a winner. Skip has the pros and cons about right, especially the con regarding leadership. Ending at the 8th grade, I think, will significantly change the whole idea of leadership development in Boy Scouts. It's not that we can't teach 10, 11 and 12 year olds to lead, the issue is getting the rest to follow. Boys that age simply don't want to listen to a peer. Over the last two weeks we've had patrol elections with two of the patrols electing second-year Scouts as Green Bars. Both these patrols have older Scout as members including a 16-year old SPL in each. I met with those two guys last week and told them they both needed to take on the role of mentoring their PLs. They need to think of themselves as ASMs and learn to support the PLs without taking over. (Thinking about it, I may appoint them both JASMs just to drive home the point.) With no boys over age 14 who is going to take that role? Overall, I think you will see the program becoming much more adult supervised.

Yeah, I could have spend another half hour writing out interfaith scenarios, but I figured most folk would get that the greater point is to engage the young men and get THEM to consider their own faith and obligations to it.

One of my standard Scoutmaster conference questions is "What is your duty to God and how do you do that?" I then try to just listen. Frequently, however, my side of the conversation ends up explaining to the Scout that BSA only requires a belief in a higher being but does not dictate what that belief should be. That is up to the Scout, his parents and his faith. Yes, consistent with the Declaration of Religious Principals, if you can convince me you are a sincere and faithful Pastafarian and can tell me how you fulfill your duty to your faith, I'm good with that. Obviously, a Pastafarian is going to have a fairly high hill to climb to convince me of his sincerity. I'm not stupid. Consequently, I have no problem, per se, with the rule. It's simply stating what I have already deduced from the DRP. I do, however, share the concern that those who are inclined to do so will see this as a green light to prothselytize. To whoever asked if we've ever encountered someone who did this (sorry, I can't find the post to quote) -- yes. An ASM was fairly aggressive in sharing his conservative Christian faith with two of my Scouts. They tried to play nice but after the third time the ASM approached them on the topic the boys came to me. My talk with the ASM went well but I could tell he was fairly offended.

My direction would depend on my relationship with the various players. I have a good working relationship with most the Scoutmasters in the immediate community and would be comfortable giving them an off-the record head's up. If you're not comfortable with that, I'd have a conversation with the Scout Executive. The SE should be trained to separate the wheat from the chaff here. Stick with the DUI conviction, especially with the other Scoutmaster. The rest may come across as gossip. Whether or not the other troop is aware of and dealing with the DUI will let you know where they stand and if you need to go further.

Pack -- that's kinda where I'm coming from. Do this for a few years and see a number of parents grumbling because their kid's scrap lumber birdhouse kit had a knot hole in it or the snacks you provide ought to be organic then get back to me. My reaction to the OP was the DL was pretty smart getting out ahead of the expense curve by setting the expectation early. I wish I had done that.

Welcome to the forums Karen. Please understand what you're getting into here. You ask for opinions and you certainly get them with no holds barred. Asked whether the cupcakes should have blue icing and gold sprinkles or gold icing with blue sprinkles and you're as likely as not to get a long dissertation on the multitude of errors in how you run the pack. But the truth is you're tapping into a HUGE amount of experience her. Many folks haven't just "been there, done that," they've been and done it annually for many, many years. Very frequently, what comes off as gruff, is simply cutting to the chase. Add to that the limitations of a online forum -- black and white with no context or intonation. Little smiley faces don't help much. While Ding Dong is a proud member of the curmudgeon club, I don't find is initial response out of line at all. After a little time in the program -- especially if you serve as a leader -- you will be surprised at the number of people who DO expect the den leader to do all those things he lists. My favorite are those who volunteer AFTER the fact -- "Gosh, you should have told me we're building birdhouses. I have tons of scrap wood at the house." Well, we're building tool boxes next month. "Oh, well I don't have that much wood....." One of the main reasons leaders do get burned out is by well-intentioned parents taking for granted the expense and amount of time leaders put into the program. That said, $40 is a deal. When I was Cubmaster, pack dues were $65 of which we allocated $20 to each den for their expenses. Now, 14 years later, a combined $90 doesn't seem like much (especially since national dues have taken up most of the difference). Could the DL have done a better job communicating or selling the den budget to the parents? Sure. But think about what that would have entailed -- spending the additional time writing out a formal budget, typing it up, making copies. Then what happened when they distribute that to the parents. With eight families you're bound to have 12 opinions on the budget. The easier course is to come up with something reasonable (which I believe this is) and announce it. Same with schedules. I used to tell my DL one of the benefits of being DL is the ability to dictate schedules. And I do mean dictate. Don't ask when is a good time for various event. Someone will ALWAYS have a conflict and want to reschedule. The DL sets the calendar. Everyone else can make it work or not. I think the same applies to your situation. Go along to get along. Pay the $40 AND cheerfully volunteer for all the other stuff you mentioned.

Youth led does not mean youth led off into a ditch. This isn't "controlled failure," just failure. Part of the job of the adult leadership is to ensure that the consequences of failure fall to those responsible for the failure AND you are still delivering a quality program to the younger Scouts.

Default should always be to keep a boy with his buddies. Being in Scouts with his friends is the #1 predictor of success and longevity in the program. Q-- love the rule. We should have t-shirts made.

Wait, wait, wait.... "Only if you mean 'tweaking' in the same way that.... Wait, stop, I'm writing that one down! Love it!

I'm with Stosh. The only thing I would add would be to make sure whoever is driving these bozos know the pizza/doughnut stop is out of the question. Better yet, they ride with me. (I have a CD of Hank Williams' -- Sr, not Jr. -- Greatest Hits in the truck for just such occasions.) The worst thing that can happen is the bozo patrol parlays their screw up into street cred by eating pizza. I would also think twice about allowing them to negotiate with the younger Scouts for leftovers. I've seen this before -- the screw-ups end up strutting around camp bragging about pizza for breakfast, eating for free and bragging about not having to do dishes. Next thing you know every patrol will be "forgetting". This is a situation where the adults need to make sure the proper lessons are learned.