Tuoc Syag

And to reiterate the real topic I was debating: I know the BSA does not accept me as it is, and I accept that, and I didn't mean to argue whether or not that was a fair policy. That is the horse that has been beaten to death. But in its own words, "no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God," and "an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys." My question relied entirely on the basis of the above statements, and whether that was a valid assertion, with the addition of the homosexuality factor to the atheist factor.

Beavah, I think you have an excellent point. In fact, I already have a plan to get engaged to a heterosexual woman on my 25th birthday. You know, once the whole young, rebellious stage of my life is officially over. I picked out a church for our wedding, too, since I'll believe in God some time around then. "If atheist, why stay in BSA? (why go to Sunday School?, etc.)" I wouldn't go to Sunday School because that's a program designed specifically around practicing religion. Scouting is largely based on practicing religions, but not homogeneously. In some troops, like my own, there is very little pressure of religion. Most adults mildly encourage participation in religious events, but sometimes vespers was optional, we usually only said grace at summer camp, and there were no other mandatory discussions about religion. We were a very "live and let live" troop and it worked for us. If it had been as religiously guided as a Sunday School, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed it. That was probably the most conflicting part of the whole situation: I had a troop that would have accepted me (at least for being an atheist), but the national (which had a lot less direct influence on my experience) had a policy by which I wasn't accepted. To clarify again, I still maintain my scouting contacts, but I no longer consider myself an active leader. And also, on a totally curious and non-related, non-derogatory note, @Beavah, to you speak in the same manner you write?

OGE, if you're still concerned I'm a troll who disappeared, once again, I am not. I have been following this very closely. However, most of the questions specifically directed to me have been resolved, and I haven't had anything I need to throw into the ring. While I am posting something, I suppose I will toss in my two cents about discrimination. I didn't mean discrimination in the negative connotation. I meant it in the "basketball coaches discriminate against bad basketball players" sort of way. It is fully legal discrimination, albeit subjectively justifiable discrimination.

OGE, I think you've hit the nail on the head. "No amount of logic about how good a role model you are changes that." That brings me to another one of my motives for this whole thing. As much as I wish otherwise, I understand the fact that the BSA is a private organization and can discriminate as it wants, and it even was willing to lose public funding to uphold that right. But a lot of opinions I had read in the past as for the reasons that the BSA has its no gay policy had nothing to do with concerns over sleeping arrangements and the like, but instead that it is impossible to be a role model with morals if one is gay and/or atheist. OGE's comment really defies that opinion. My initial question was not about whether or not I am/should be allowed in scouting, as that is an objective rule. Instead, those people who answered Yes to the first question and No to the second seem to agree that being a good role model depends on whether or not I am gay/atheist. I understand that the BSA can discriminate all it wants, but if the core reason is that gays/atheists can't be good role models, I think its reasoning needs a second look.

Lisa, I'd just like to reach an understanding of what we mean. I can take your idea that I am pushing my beliefs on everyone in two ways. I am not trying to convince anyone that atheism is the right thing to believe. Every person has his own belief of what's right. However, I would like people to understand that religious adherence is an example of one group's interpretation of "right" that is pushed on others by sheer force of will. And in a sense, that in itself pushes a belief, but one of inclusion and not rigidity.

@packsaddle: Perhaps this is something that cannot be resolved, nor does anybody need to waste time on arguing anything. My motivation for starting this thread was to resolve a curiosity of mine, admittedly a selfish cause. I know very well that many scouters have voiced their heated opinions on this type of subject many times already, but many times, they speak on gays and atheists in general, and I had always wondered how predisposed a judgment of character is just based on someone's beliefs or sexual orientation. I wanted to see how people's opinions change after thinking initially that the person in question was of fine character. I have gotten to see that reaction, so if you feel you must remove the thread, go ahead, but I welcome anyone "wasting time" with this to leave and anyone who wants to throw down an opinion to feel free. @Several Others: When I gave the scout sign and promised my Duty to God I was shallowly going through the motions I needed to continue spending time with friends, gaining leadership experience, and taking such great character development (arguably, apparently) out of the program. That I'll admit. But part of my belief is that I can be of good morals without being told right and wrong from an arbitrary source. I believe morality is subjective (which itself is a paradox), and that I should apply logic, rationale, and empathy to determine the best decisions to make. I felt that I was not violating any of my own morals by being insincere about one part of a promise I otherwise agreed with and lived up to. After all, I was never explicitly asked "Do you believe in a god?" As an analogy, some of those who call themselves devout Christians occasionally miss a church service, and many of them don't live up to ALL of the teachings of the bible verbatim. They might reconcile it that one does not need to be a perfect Christian to be a good Christian. So should I let two shortcomings of another set of laws stop me from following a program I considered to otherwise be a great program, one to which I attribute much of my maturity and character growth. It would be like a 95% Christian feeling like he should abandon his religion just because he hasn't followed the religion perfectly.

I swear I am not cricket624. I don't know why everyone dismisses this so quickly as a troll. I wanted to pose this question to a group I thought would have some interesting input. This is the only thread I have posted in, and it is the only thread I plan on posting in. And Beavah, you've got me. I didn't do my research, but I can tell you I know of at least 6 or 7 atheists in my troop, most of them Eagles, as well as 5 other gay scouts, 4 of them Eagles, so while my estimate has no backing, know that I am not too rare of a case. The BSA is entitled to its own policy, but just know that there are many who wish it would change.

As the OP, I truly am not a troll. For the purposes of this heated topic I have chosen to remain anonymous, but the facts I presented in front of you are accurate, and they are similar for hundreds of scouts. I will admit that I have lied in that I am not reverent to any god, but I am reverent in the respectful sense. When a cub scout becomes a boy scout at the age of ~10-11, he knows little of himself in many ways. So when he's a Life Scout and realizes that his faith in science outweighs his faith in religion, how do you expect him to leave behind his best friends and great community service opportunities, as well as all of the advancement work he had already put in. And when he is a 15 year old finishing his Eagle project and realizes for sure that he is attracted to men and not women, how do you expect him to leave behind a milestone like the rank of Eagle. Now, I understand that the program doesn't agree with a lot of my personality, and I now only attend an occasional meeting, but I wanted to make this point, that nothing changes about my leadership ability, or any of the other characteristics relating to being a role model, between those two questions. There are plenty of good-natured potential scouters that the BSA chooses to reject.

I suppose I should clarify what I mean about being openly gay. My district/council definitely does not know I am gay. Probably half of the older scouts in my troop knew, accepted it, and treated me no differently. In response to ClemLaw, I try not to bring up my sexuality unprovoked, any more than anyone may imply their heterosexuality, but I am open in that when it comes up in conversation, I don't fear outing myself. As far as I know, none of my troops' leaders know, but all of my friends and most of my family knows that I'm gay and treats me no differently.

After I introduce myself I have two questions that I would like answered by the forum. I am an 18 year old Eagle Scout with 3 palms. I spent more than 2 years as a Patrol Leader, a year as SPL, and a year as a JASM. I am currently registered as an Assistant Scoutmaster, and accompanied a contingent troop to the 2010 Scout Jamboree as an adult leader. I've been a crew leader at Philmont, I've been the leader of our high adventure patrol, and I've been to two Jamborees and a NOAC. I've always respected my superior leaders, I've always thought with morals in mind. I graduated at the top of my class and was a member of three honor societies. Parents accompanying new scouts to meetings have remarked how friendly and great of a role model I am to the young scouts, and it was my quickness in getting Eagle that inspired my peer friends to stick with scouting through Eagle and beyond. Question 1: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts? In addition to my scouting pursuits, I am openly gay and have been an atheist since the age of 13. Question 2: Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts?