blw2

yeah, we always did the first signed up, first paid thing.... although i don't think we ever really had much of a problem with this. Even on the trips where we had to reserve a specific head count such as sleeping on the aircraft carrier, we were always able to add, or had a drop or two that could be filled. And I agree no way to give priority to cubs, since the cubs wouldn't come alone. That last point I find interesting though, since as my younger daughters are coming up through daisies and brownies, parents are very much discouraged form attending their "camps". It's scouts and leaders only at a very young age. Mind you it's cabin "camping" only at the GS reservation so a very controlled environment and they are not going it on their own.

I think this is a very interesting thread. Points to a fundamental failing me thinks. Semantics in a way, sure.... but I'd guess that near 100% of us scouters joined a troop when we were young. Boys today also join a troop. Patrols are usually the afterthought but I think that this thinking is fundamentally wrong, and points to one of the largest failings in the BSA today. If we would all twist our thinking around on this, to much of what has been written here in the thread....patrols as a core, sometimes coming together as a troop to compete etc... with a scoutmaster overseeing just enough to keep the patrols out of trouble (the trespassing example) and on track, etc.... This written regrettably, as my tenure as a registered scouter is coming to a close in about 8 weeks time, because my son lost interest in scouting and quit.....and I just don't have the gumption to keep on with it given that i see it as a broken system that I alone can in no way fix.

our troop has charged $100, which long ago was determined by some long ago scouter, as a good round number that hits the target pays for national dues at recharter boys life and pays into the bank account for general stuff. It more or less pays for advancement patches, etc.... scouters pay the cost of national dues Then, we typically charge $20 for the monthly camp out as grub fee. If you go, it costs $20 a head for the scouts..... Scouters/adults generally just split whatever the cost is for the food for the adults More often than not, camp outs are a slight profit maker for the troop, considering that often some of the drivers don't submit their gas expenses, etc... Not saying I like the approach exactly, its just what we do.

great question. I'd say perhaps. I can think of an example of a time, not related to patrol assignments, but instead the patrol name. Still an example that shows similar idea. The scouts voted on patrol name, but instead of trying to find consensus, the majority ruled...lead by a very overbearing scout. So the patrol had a name and a patch, that not quite half of the scouts did not want to sew on their uniforms. In defense of the scouts, they did not even know the meaning of the word consensus. That, in my opinion, is an example where a SM can earn his pay with some gentle nudging and coaching BEFORE something like that gets set in stone.....to head of that win/loose with a win/win instead

in our case, it was fuzzier than that. Not really the whim of the scoutmaster, exactly. like with a lot of things, "the boys decided" but I would contend that yeah, they might have come up with the idea, or otherwise decided.....but often it was at the steerage of the adult(s)....sometime that even happens almost subconsciously, with the adult not really intending it, but the little hints and nudges can be an influence no doubt

another way the committee can and should "monitor" this sort of thing is through the boards of review....with the goal being to monitor the "health" of the troop and advise the SM....nothing more well, I had a somewhat "harsh" reaction to reading the post I think tampa turtles photo nailed it.... ...as a natural reaction to arm the anti-aircraft defenses! It's just another example of helicopter adults with too much time on their hands apparently, making up new ways to over complicate the works

I'll let that one go with just a ....well, for starters... you are right. Nothing wrong with changing classes, or changing teams. They can do it, sure no problem... but that aint the point here' We're talking scouts, and I'm referring to the basic 'original' concept of it (as I understand it).... not talking about classes and school. Most boys don't like school, and those that do don't come to scouts to get more of it.... We wouldn't want to make scouting into school classes, because it seems like that could really hurt in a lot of ways.....oh, wait... . that already happened. Seriously though, the only reason I'm making the "gang" concept "critical" is because it was a fundamental principal that baden powel used in formulating this whole game of scouting using a patrol method. I guess that's only just a little tiny reason I suppose.... "want to" being a key point in my thinking. I personally don't for a second think that it can't happen in mixed ages. Of course it can. The bigger point is that age is not even a variable to be considered, in my opinion.....it's the "want to". Now usually, the age range will be rather narrow.... plus or minus 1 grade typically in my observations, so maybe 3 years or so in age.... uh, yeah.... I'm not so sure about that being such a firm absolute. Acquaintances sure, friends not always..... Now here I agree with you. One or two friends, sure...all is good. Start to feel comfortable after a few meetings.....ok, sure.... Joining a functioning patrol....sure good, but they probably want that one or two friends in order to feel comfortable but fostering really solid patrol pride/spirit.... well that takes time together. Shuffle them apart every now and then, well they start over....or more likely don't even try. Don't get me wrong here....I'm not trying to foster the "NSP" idea. No, not at all. Personally, I like the idea of "patrol". Not forced, not aged, not anything....just "patrol" If that patrol happens to be made up of mostly or totally newer scouts, so be it. That one might just have to be groomed along a bit differently by the other scouts in the troop.

well put, Colonel!

in the big scheme of things, not much at all! That I think it a major problem.... what I was getting at ....& I suppose it may have been poorly written...was not to be critical of you or your experience....just to say that any time the patrol selections are set from outside the natural boy-group, it's not the pure "gang" of friends that purely and simply chose to be. By the time the 1970's rolled around, things were well underway into the big ship of rules and procedures that we call the BSA. That's all I was getting at. It's a far cry from the group of neighborhood guys that were friends already, choosing collectively to play this game of scouting. Not so unlike how little league baseball might differ quite a lot from sandlot neighborhood pickup games.....

From BP's Aids to Scoutmastership, "The girls are the important people, because when the mothers of the nation are good citizens and women of character, they will see to it that their sons are not deficient in these points. As things are, the training is needed for both sexes, and is imparted through the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides (Girl Scouts) Movements. The principles are the same for both. It is only in the details that they vary." (bolding emphasis is mine) I think the details in which they differ are quite self evident if one is intellectually honest with themself.

I of course can't speak to the program you experienced, exactly but i would venture to guess that "most" patrols in the 1970's weren't being run in the purest of sense..... ....going back to that "gang of boys" that naturally want to just run around together I mean... I'll say this,,,the mis-management..... and ultimate forced break up of my son's "NSP" I'm sure was a major factor in his dropping out of scouts. Having a bunch of outsiders come in and tell him and his friends which groups they must swear allegiance to..... splitting said friend groups away form each other....yeah, that predictable doesn't fly.

take-order selling our troop sells Christmas Wreaths, and does ok

I'm not familiar with the new program, but I can mention a thing or two that i think is helpful form an over arching perspective. and this is based on hind site, not necessarily what we did...but what I wish I had.... Summing it up, I wish that we had implemented the patrol method in the WEBELOS Den From a scouter perspective, I think one would do well to get better up to speed with the patrol method, and what that "could" be. This would help YOU to better understand where these young scouts are heading.... I'll suggest two easy read books and some podcasts you could peruse.... podcasts.... http://scoutmastercg.com/category/patrol-method/ a book by Baden Powell, that you can read online here....http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/ and a book by Clarke Green, So Far So Good, A New Scoutmaster's Story And from the perspective of your Scouts, I suggest fostering patrol spirit and pride in the den. and focusing on fun in the adventure Start letting the scouts do more,making decisions, actually making things happen. encourage tehm to make a den flag, have a den yell....don't do it for them, but encourage and lastly, embrace the chaos. Things won't be done to the level you would have them....but the the Scouts do it.

Agreed. A long time ago, I started a thread about "one program". What I was trying to get at was this "unified vision". In my thinking, boy lead patrol method really isn't all that hard of a concept....IF one spends just a bit of time to research the idea, do a bit of reading, and reflect on what was originally laid out. The problem I suppose is that there is no unified level as to how much reading, reflecting, and understanding one needs to form an opinion. It really is a very basic concept, but I'd venture to guess that there really aren't two troops that operated exactly the same.

yeah, i agree with the idea "don't do one den" If an equal split, that means 9 scouts and 10 scouts....even those numbers are too big for a den but I can understand not going all the way down to three dens....in case some of those boys are less active..... at 6 scouts the group is starting to get dependent on everyone showing up for there to be enough to have fun, form the "gang", den spirit, and all of that.... Now I can see doing some joint ventures sometimes, or on a campout when one of you can't make it the other could "fill in"....but generally I do not think it good to treat it as one den. Just too big. And that's not even getting into your overlying "too many Chiefs" issue!

I would point you to look around over at scoutmastercg.com, rather than the bsa. i get the idea that the bsa has really drifted away form the fundamentals of the patrol method. He has tons of great info over there, info graphics, podcasts, and blog write-ups that address this topic.

I think the bit about weight given based on years of service is interesting on at least a few levels 1) I think the point is true enough in some cases.... 2) but not necessarily if the point of the poll is to find out what an outsider's perspective is....or a perspective of a new recruit....etc... 3) whenever I hear someone say to someone ...I've been doing this job for 15 years, you've been doing it one. Often times a person might make a sound argument that he's been doing it wrong for 15 years....or 14 of those 15 years...or.... well, you get the idea. Time of experience doesn't mean that it was good experience. 4) and then there's the aspect for things.... dynamic movement vs locked into doing things the old ways and not able to adapt to new ways.... On the subject of polls. I just received one this morning from national. addressed to "the parent of"....Questions all about "family". "What value does your family get from scouting." "How do the values that scouting teach help your family" I made it clear in many of my answers that scouting is the journey of the scout, not the family's journey

well, I haven't been visiting here as much as I used to..... I had been hoping that my son would go to a meeting or two this fall to give it another try...maybe a campout.... so far, crickets...... he does not want to go. Early on after the troop "started back up" after the summer camp break, I'd remind him every week "troop meeting tonight, want to go?" also had a few chats with him about it really trying to encourage him to finish 1st class, but without being too pushy about it.... he has no interest. My other hope was that his friends in the troop, some of which he sees almost every day, would invite him along...."Hey, why don't you come to the meeting tonight?"....maybe they have but as far as I know they have not. Honestly talking to some of those parents most of those scouts are lukewarm about it too.... So anyway, a few weeks back I let the CC know that I think the troop would be better served in finding a treasurer that would be actually coming to the meetings. I have no real interest in going if son isn't coming along.... She said they'd find a replacement.... (yipee!) No more discussions with me about it....Last month's meeting had a conflict and was canceled but next Committee mtg coming up, it'll be interesting to see if there has been any progress. I had been intending on paying dues for my son and I, just to keep us alive on paper.... but now I think that'll just be a waste so I think come recharter time, I'm out....after 7 years as a gung-ho scouter.... ADL, ACM, CM, CC of the troop for a short while, basically acting CC of the pack while I was CM, back to ADL, and finally Troop Treasurer.... Very sad, but relieved at the same time..... even though I'm still working the job with the current fund raiser going

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

I've heard of it, but have no idea what "learning for life" is. I honestly thought it was just an advertising tag line for the BSA truthfully. so based on that and as a long time FL resident I am thankful to Gov Scott at the moment. Sounds like yet another bloated thing paid for by the government that really is no business of the state government.... Sounds like he's right on the money to me, based on what little I know (only this thread) Now I am open minded and ready to be convinced otherwise.....

Yeah, our troop carries a few extra adults that are never really engaged or involved. A few i think only so they can go to summer camp but for some reason they keep registering them. Personally, I feel that if they don't show to committee meetings (ASM's would be to the troop meetings) they likely should not be chartered....and if they attend the committee meetings but otherwise don't have a job or do anything, I would question it personally. I'd lean to encouraging them to sign on as counselors and leave it at that.... No sense in paying the money of they are not engaged....

I use a basic singer machine I found that cheap thread is no good. Had lots of birds nest formed on the back side when using some "whatever I had lying around from wife's old sewing kit" (she is not a sewer so it was just some cheap stuff she got in a kit....) and my suggestion is to make sure to get a good seam ripper. Sometimes I have had a dickens of a time, even after pinning the patch or stapling it in place, having it move during the sewing for a crooked end result. I got better but still have to re-do them once in a while....

Boy Scouts of America Announces Expansion of Scouting Programs to Allow Girls To: North Florida Council, BSA Scouting Community Fr: Jack Sears, Scout Executive/CEO Dt: October 12, 2017 On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America voted to expand Scouting Programs to allow Girls. The North Florida Council Executive Board, Staff and National Council Representatives were given no advance notice that this would be an agenda item for resolution at the National Executive Board meeting. In fact, I learned of the outcome of the decision just as everyone else did via news sources outside of the BSA. The official statement from the Boy Scouts of America is provided below. I have not been provided any information beyond what I am forwarding to you at this time. As soon as I learn more about the operational processes that follows this action I will share with you. The North Florida Council, BSA Executive Committee (Officers), are meeting next Tuesday. Any input that you would like for me to share with the Officers regarding this decision will be shared with our Officers and we will be sure to pass along to the National Council of the BSA. As I read the statement, Cub Scout Packs through their Chartered Organizations will be given the discretion to expand the Cub Scout program to girls at some point in 2018. Further, a program that uses the same curriculum as the Boy Scout program for girls will be announced sometime during 2018 as well; however, will not be available until 2019. While these are great days of historic change for the Boy Scouts of America the Scout Oath and Law remains unchanged as it has for over 106 years. As more information becomes available, I will share. Thanks for your continued interest and support. National BSA Statement Regarding the Expansion of Scouting Programs to Allow Girls: Today, the BSA’s Board of Directors unanimously approved welcoming girls into our iconic Cub Scout program and delivering a Scouting program for older girls that will enable them to advance and earn the highest rank of Eagle Scout. This decision comes after years of receiving requests from families and girls. The BSA evaluated the results of numerous research efforts, gaining input from current members and leaders — as well as parents and girls who’ve never been involved in Scouting — to understand how to offer families an important additional choice in meeting the character development needs of all their children. Starting in the 2018 program year, families can choose to sign up their sons and daughters for Cub Scouts. Existing packs may choose to establish a new girl pack, establish a pack that consists of girl dens and boy dens or remain an all-boy pack. Cub Scout dens will be single-gender — all boys or all girls. Using the same curriculum as the Boy Scouts program, the organization will also deliver a program for older girls, which will be announced in 2018 and projected to be available in 2019, that will enable them to earn the Eagle Scout rank. This unique approach allows us to maintain the integrity of the single-gender model while also meeting the needs of today’s families. This decision expands the programs that the Boy Scouts of America offers for both boys and girls. Although known for our iconic programs for boys, the BSA has offered co-ed programs since 1971 through Exploring and the Venturing program, which celebrates its 20th anniversary in 2018. The STEM Scout pilot program is also available for both boys and girls. Jack L. Sears, Jr.| Scout Executive/CEO BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA North Florida Council

I got the survey, but in my thinking it was a formality with the writing already drying on the wall.... but extending this idea....that folks weren't given a chance to voice in.... the announcement from our council's executive just hitting my in-box a few minutes ago... His opening paragraph (bolding is mine) On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America voted to expand Scouting Programs to allow Girls. The North Florida Council Executive Board, Staff and National Council Representatives were given no advance notice that this would be an agenda item for resolution at the National Executive Board meeting. In fact, I learned of the outcome of the decision just as everyone else did via news sources outside of the BSA. .......

I think I will propose that during next month's committee meeting! How does our unit fundraise? well the adults on the committee, perhaps with SM and an ASM or two, will brainstorm ideas then one of the committee members will very reluctantly agree to spearhead the efforts. That person will work their behind off....maybe pushing....er...encouraging... a few of the scouts to man a booth, or some such thing...but mainly the volunteer will get the word out to the scouts' parents who will either buy whatever it is &/or take an order sheet into their work to sell. Once in a while there will be a scout who actually takes initiative to go door to door, but that is a statistically outlying event (wishing my tongue was firmly in cheek)