True Believer

I know that leaders must take Youth Protection Training every two years. Later, I was told that the same is true for Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. Now, I am being asked to retake This is Scouting, Leader Specific and Outdoor Leaders Skills...... While I can understand Youth Protection, I don't understand the need to retake the latter. What's the definitive word?

There are two issues which occur when recruiting from Cub Packs: One is the parent issue thoroughly discussed above. The Second is the Webelos program itself. Just as the Cub Scout program is very different from the Boy Scout program, the Cub Scout program is very different from the Webelos program. We have three packs in our area. One does the Webelos program correctly: no more arts and crafts, more outdoor activities, joint events with local troops, use of a "patrol" instead of a "den", etc. One does not do the program correctly, outright refuses, and they lose most of their members after Webelos one. the other waivers from year to year. If the Cub Leadership fails to prep the boys for Boy Scouts and follow the program, all is for naught.

Our Troop used to suggest that every family have one adult sign up as an ASM; I could never understand this and ended it. Most didn't sign up, anyway. If someone wants to be an ASM in our troop, we ask them to come camping with us a few times, and complete Scoutmaster training. We had too many guys who refused to do the training, and this ended that problem. We also had a number of helicopter moms wanting to be ASMs, so they could go caping with their boys (!). This ended those aspirations. ASMs are given assignments: one for each patrol, one to work with the quartermaster, one to work on high adventure with the older scouts. Others who want to help as needed. Seems to work well.

Every once in a while, I have a Scout whose family is moving out of the area. We say "goodbye" during circle up at the end of the meeting. I was wondering if any troops out there have a ceremony to wish the Scout well and to encourage him to find a new troop?

Beevah is absolutely right in advising that you draft bylaws before any issues arise. Once you start drafting while an issue is sitting out there, everyone will focus on drafting rules that they think will fix the problem, or exact punishment on whom they perceive to be the enemy. Just as legislation drafted to remedy one event or problem, becomes poor law, so it will be with your set of bylaws. As an attorney who helps create partnerships, small corporations and non-profit groups, I always implore the individuals to draft bylaws prior to beginning any work. Once work begins, issues and fears begin to arise and it becomes impossible to draft a good set of procedures and goals. When you write, focus on procedures. How is the group to run? The list of points, posted above, is a very good place to start. What is the chain of command? Who runs the group? I suggest that you always put in the following clause: "The rules contained in Roberts Rules of Order, newly revised, shall govern the proceedings of the Troop Committee in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these by-laws" This is important for two reasons: 1) you may miss something in your draft. If you do, get a copy of Robert's Rules and it will tell you how to proceed; 2) If there is anything, in drafting your bylaws, which cannot be resolved or you find too charged to discuss, let Robert's Rules decide (I find this particularly helpful in determining how to discipline wayward members). The Bylaws are intended to be a skeleton, stating who the officers are, how they are chosen, and how they are going to get things done together. Bylaws should not get too specific on micro issues...the detail of how things are done beyond basic procedure.

No, not exactly. While we are asking for the $85 up front (and I don't like that we are doing it), it's a far cry from $350 up front PLUS several fund raisers. But, more to my point, from what I have been reading, above, I get the impression that these charges and set asides for equipment, etc, are being developed and implemented by adults. There is no Scout discussion of a program, how much it will cost (budget) and how are they are going to raise the money...annually. The budget (income) has already been set for them. No need to learn about how to budget and spend. We've taken that away from them. That's my point.

This is very interesting stuff. Each year, our PLC develops its yearly plan, determines its likely cost, and plans how it is going to pay for it. Traditionally, the Troop has made ends meet through dues and a few fundraisers. Dues were paid by the Scout, each meeting, at $2.00. It was suggested that parents NOT just hand the Scout their $2.00, but make them earn it (Troop policy since 1938). The problem is, present attitudes. Parents just can't be bothered paying two dollars a week, let alone making their children responsible for earning it, thus dues were coming up short, and it created a problem. No amount of reminders, discussion as to the intent, created a fix to the problem. We literally had to require that the yearly dues be paid up front. I see this as another loss to the Scout program; another area where personal responsibility is being lost to convenience. Recently, I have learned that a local troop requires hundreds of dollars, annually, to be paid up-front by parents. They have great equipment, including large dining tents and stoves. Lots a great stuff. But, what are we teaching our Scouts? By doing this, aren't we just passing this generations preoccupation with "stuff", and how things look, as opposed to substance and the aims of the program? I don't think it's a coincidence that these high priced troops are all adult led.

We tried doing a first year patrol, and it failed for a variety of reasons. Now, we have a new scout patrol, composed of incoming former Webelos, until about May, and well before summer camp. We ask each new scout to write down one or two buddies that they would like to be with in a patrol. Then the Senior Patrol leader and the Scoutmaster assign these pairs to an existing patrol. These seems to work very well.

Emmon, If you study the time period, you will see that much of English society was sympathetic to our Revolution. Certainly, it was understood that the Tory government mishandled the whole thing. As far as those co-workers telling you we Kicked English Butt... First, WE were English citizens at the time; Second, there is a strong likelihood that we won because the Howe brothers were Whigs and kept letting Washington escape annihilation in the early years; Third, English public opinion was with the "rebels". Fourth, it was the principles of the English constitution that began the whole effort. So, Happy Fourth of July!

That's the spirit! Keep those words alive.

You guys raise a good point about overthinking the 2 deep rule. If one adult leader is present but not alone with the scout(s), there is no YP problem. I can't believe that we all (here) have overlooked such a simple matter. OK. I have more than enough here to go to the Committee and have the policy changed to something more reasonable. Again, thank you all very much.

OK, just to pour some water on the heat I see generating on this thread...... NO ONE is FORCING or Coercing anyone to attend a particular denomination. If a Scout says, I don't want to go, someone will stay outside with him, within the parameters of BSA mandated two deep leadership. So far, no one has taken that position, probably because they are not being forced to do anything but sit and be quiet. Beevah is correct, in my mind: If you have a problem with your son going to a Catholic Church because of the two deep leadership mandate, then step up to the plate and go camping with us. Take your son elsewhere. Otherwise, out of respect, courtesy, kindness and reverence, understand that the Catholic scouts must go to mass, to do their duty to God. If there are not enough Protestant parents on the camping trip, we must all go to the Catholic Church, out of obedience to the BSA youth protection mandate. This is not an easy issue. It is not one that can be wished away by a Scouts Own Service. I appreciate all of your comments which I will take to my Committee, including those posted hereafter. I value all of you, highly. And, yes, our Presbyterian Charter organization knows exactly what the committee rule is (see the first post in this thread), and the church elders have accepted it.

Unfortunately, given our wide range of localities on monthly camp outs, such a person is not available. And then, there is the issue of....Mass attendance for Catholics. Catholics have been taught that if they miss Sunday Mass, it is a mortal sin (a very serious matter). Now, remember that I am a practicing Catholic. I have been advised by clerics that this is not a requirement...missing one mass is not an issue. Nevertheless, as in most matters, what may be so doesn't matter if the belief of a majority is different. And, by far, most believe that the Sunday Mass is a requirement. Thus, a Non-denominational service is ok, but it does not fulfill the Mass obligation. If I can expand on your point though, perhaps I can get a deacon in to express church doctrine and that will calm everyone down. I see what you are saying.

My troop committee has a long standing rule, that if the troop does not make it back from an overnight trip on Sunday, before 10:30 am, the Scoutmaster must take the Scouts to a church on the way home. As Scoutmaster, I have carried out this prudent rule, because, if we did not get back on time, it is unlikely that those who regularly attended church would be able to get the services/mass on time. This year, I have been getting a lot of resistance, not only from the Scouts, but adults on the trip. Half of my troop are Roman Catholics. The other half is composed of various Protestant denominations. The understanding is that our Troop Chaplain's Aide will obtain a Catholic Church and a Presbyterian Church (our chartering organization) in the area, for us to attend. However, we frequently have two deep youth protection issues, in that the leaders tend to be Catholics. So, as per the understanding, we all go to a Catholic Church. For years this has been ok. Now, I am getting a little resistance from non-Catholic parents. Add to this the rules about who can and cannot receive communion, and instead of bringing us together, it makes obvious what separates us. I have therefore asked the Troop Committee to review this situation, and its policy at the next meeting. I have asked it to publicize its policy beyond the troop new parent handout, so that all are informed of it, and know that it's just not me who is insisting on going to church (yes, that's an issue too) and a Roman Catholic one at that (yes, I am a Catholic). This is a long way of asking, is anyone aware of guidelines from National BSA on this topic? Thank you.

Wow...Old Grey Owl....VERY NICE. I will be handing that out at the next meeting. Thank you very much!

Last night, I held my quarterly scoutmasters meeting. Since I heard hearsay complaints that we discriminated against women (even tho our troop committee chair is a woman), I invited anyone who was thinking of becoming a scoutmaster. One of my helicopter moms showed up. I let the ASMs in the room describe the commitment and training involved. But the big moment came when they stressed that as an adult leader, you are a guest in camp, NOT your son's father or mother. You have to stay separate. With that, her face dropped, and she became very troubled. I asked her if she had a question because it looked like something as bothering her. She said, "well, I told my son I was doing this so that we could be together at camp. " One of the ASMs quickly and nicely disabused her of this notion, saying it is not good for the boy or the other boys in the troop. IT's not what the program is all about. She seemed to accept that, and I had the Troop Chair contact her to take one of the committee positions. She knows that she is always welcome to camp with us, but know she has heard "the rules" from others. Two down, three to go..... The more I think about this, the more I think this is really about assuring the parent that we are trained and safe, and that boy-led works.

Within the month of the Webelos cross-over into our troop, I hold a parents meeting for new parents (and any "old" parents who wish to attend). It is at this meeting that I go into detail about the BSA program, the patrol method, boy-led, etc. I even hand out an article from Psychology Today, which was on this web-site almost two years ago, about how this present generation is being harmed by their hovering parents. I build the BSA program as the solution. The Troop chair also speaks, along with a number of other committee members. But, having read what Eagle92 wrote, above, I think a change is in order. Having the SPL present to discuss the patrol method, and a Scoutmaster discussion of training for safety and the time put in by troop volunteers, is the missing link here. I think this would go a long way to getting some acceptance by these parents. LisaBob, Last night I had one of our calm ASMs talk with the untrusting woman. It worked. In fact, she signed up to track leader training in the troop, which is probably the right job for her. I also talked to a district rep and he has heard complaints from other troops as well. He suggested that I talk with these parents one and one, and nicely point out that their son, and those around him, are never going to grow up if they keep hovering. Make a deal that perhaps they can come to troop meetings once a month, instead of all four; to go on overnights once a quarter, instead of every one. This would let their sons grow. I thought this might work, too. I think I need to send scouts into Webelos dens, and send myself once in a while, because this is where it seems to start. Would this story surprise you: one Webelos den's parents have told us that they will not allow their sons to join our troop because, when they visited us on a campout last fall, our Troop Guide had their boys actually cutting vegetables with a knife for dinner? I mean, "they could have cut their fingers off!"...

OK. I can't take it anymore. I have NEVER seen anything like this year's new batch of parents. Neither have the two prior scoutmasters I have spoken to. They are interfering with the program by their insistence on absolute safety and special requests for their individual sons! One has told me that she "does not know about this "boy led stuff"..."my son needs structure." Can;t go bicycling because, "my son has never ridden in the street before." Well, just when were you going to let him??? When he's thirty?? Then, my favorite."We want to know the exact route. We have to be sure that our sons are safe." Well, lady, you are right. I was just about to bring them down Rt 80 during rush hour. "Can I go on the campout with my son?", says another. "I just want to be sure he's ok." Every week, it's cross examination and emails. One is now saying she's going to pull her son out of the troop because during a project, her son asked his patrol leader if he could do something, and he was never given anything to do. Note that the new scouts have only been in their patrols for two meetings. Everyone is still trying to get to know each other and understand where they fit in. When I saw her son, he was having a great time with his fellow scouts and laughing his head off. It doesn't matter...it's not what Mom wanted. i just don't get it. They are interfering with the aims and goals of the program. If any of you can offer some advice on how to handle this, I would appreciate it. At least some of it is my makeup; I admit, but I still need to deal with it. I don't suppose BSA has any protocols on this burgeoning problem yet.

Mafaking wrote: "My guess is that you have a disconnect with the parents not the scouts. The parents have checked off this experience as sufficient. They are the ones who see little value in your camping program. Ask them what's wrong with your program. Your scout will go if mom clears their calendar and drops them off. " This is a HUGE point, not to be overlooked. If Mom doesn't think the program to be important to her son, other things will be scheduled in. The default position will be that "we've had a busy week, and it's the only free weekend we have." Be Boy-led, but communicate with the parents. Tell Mom how much her son is accomplishing/growing, with specific examples. In order for camping trips to be a priority, you have to give the parent, particularly Mom, it seems, value must be given.

Mafaking wrote: "My guess is that you have a disconnect with the parents not the scouts. The parents have checked off this experience as sufficient. They are the ones who see little value in your camping program. Ask them what's wrong with your program. Your scout will go if mom clears their calendar and drops them off. " This is a HUGE point, not to be overlooked. If Mom doesn't think the program to be important to her son, other things will be scheduled in. The default position will be that "we've had a busy week, and it's the only free weekend we have." Be Boy-led, but communicate with the parents. Tell Mom how much her son is accomplishing/growing, with specific examples. In order for camping trips to be a priority, you have to give the parent, particularly Mom, it seems, value must be given.

As Scoutmaster (and an attorney), i know that if anything goes wrong, I am the one that people will accuse of being the cause. It doesn't matter if that is not reality, it's just the way it is. I like my house, and my reputation, so, if I have any question in my mind about safety or procedure, I need to make a decision. This does not preclude anyone else from contacting me and demonstrating, but that has rarely happened. In the past, I have consulted with my assistant scoutmasters, just to get their points of view (not for a vote or consensus building). By then, I am able to make a decision. I then have an immediate conversation with the Troop Committee Chair, so I am on record. If I did have someone urging me to cancel a trip due to safety reasons, and I disagreed, I would involve the troop chair and/or committee. Reality is, that everyone would look to me to make the decision, even the person with whom i had disagreed. I know the Scouts and their capabilities. I am "blessed" with a parent who happens also to be a DR. She is a trouble maker in the best sense of the word, and a busy-body. Once, a new family crossed over to our troop, and they were in the middle of a nasty divorce. DR told me about it and asked what I was going to do about the husband? I told her "nothing"; I will have to wait and see. A month later, she showed up at my work office, to tell me that the husband has guns and everyone in town is afraid of him. Then, she told me that he had threatened to take his son camping with us, and was going to kill his son and himself at the campout. I asked her how she knew this, and she said, "I just know." Given what she is, and how she operates, I was very suspicious of her. I also knew the husband from his visits with our troop with the cub scouts. A very nice, outgoing guy, who knew a lot about plants and trees and was willing to share. I discussed the issue with two very experienced ASMs and a former scoutmaster who knew the accusing woman. All agreed that it was probably more of the same from her, trying to cause trouble. I discussed it with the Committee Chair and decided to do nothing. The 3 ASMs and I watched this guy all weekend. He was the nicest guy, and the older scouts took a liking to him. Not any indication of anger or firearms at all. He is now one of our super ASMs, despite his personal problems with his now, ex-spouse.

Wow....talk about the" World-wide Brotherhood of Scouting"! So, if I have this right, you are running an American type cub pack in Nigeria? Tiger cubs. This is really interesting. I'll bet in a year or so, you will be able to view things we view here, a little differently. Maybe even a little more down to earth. Can't wait to hear what your challenges and ideas are.

Because the Scouts planned it.

Why is it that it is always the "Big" boys/girls who don't know how to play right? As a Commissioner, I would think you need to leave it up to the Pack. Perhaps, "check in" with the leadership to see what they have done in the past regarding this situation, because IT IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE BOYS AND TO THE PACK. It is your role to observe and advise. As a SM, I have very little tolerance for problem adults. It's not in my nature to suffer these folks. But, it IS my job to protect the Scouts and hold fast the Oath and Law. I have one woman who is a severe trouble maker, gossip, and slanderer (I am not exaggerating). She tests all of us adult leaders. The problem is, as is hinted at above, if you are going to take on such a person, you have to be prepared to be the ONLY ONE doing it, even if others say they will support you. When push comes to shove, your supporters may lose their voice (among other things). So be absolutely sure you are willing to do this. In my case, I have had the active support of many adult leaders and parents. We have successfully deemed this woman persona non grata...although that has not completely stopped her. Bottom line, the Pack leadership must be absolutely sure of what it is going to do, how they are gong to do it, and be united. If this cannot be done, there will be huge, long lasting consequences which will hurt the program more than if you just let it alone.

You're new, all around! Welcome to Scouting. See you on the forum. "O" on the ends; "HI" in the middle.....OHIO! :-)