troutmaster

As stated, the "or more" makes it fairly clear. So, two, or even three would be okay theoretically. But, as noted, perhaps the SM has reason to not feel his service in one was quite sufficient for some reason, or he feels continuous leadership in one is a better measurement. Go with it, since the boy has plenty of time, and he still needs to complete some other requirements anyway if I heard you correctly. As an extension of this; what about huge gaps in the time since the leadership occurred? A boy held the positions, then was totally inactive for two years, then came back and did the fairly typical crash course in getting it done just prior to 18. Should the scout really be doing this leadership current with his advancement effort, or is it okay to have these kind of gaps? Strength of the leadership is really what I wonder about.

While I try not to get involved with correcting other adults, I do correct my scouts regularly in both conversation and, as a merit badge counselor for other scouts, written work. As a scholarship and reading couselor, I feel it is important that the scout at least be aware of his opportunity to improve his writing and grammar. I have never turned down written material due only to grammar or punctuation errors though. Once again, we are the examples to the boys. If we use improper language, offensive language or comments, or ignore obvious opportunities to improve their skills, we have perhaps fallen short. Unfortunately, as a substitute teacher, I regularly see students not held accountable for even basic language errors in material written outside of English or Language Arts. When I was in school, proper spelling and grammar was important in every subject; and you would lose points for these errors. This is seldom the case anymore from what I see in the schools in which I work. JMHO

Venividi; In response to your comment about the SPL. I have been a SM 30 years (some will say that is too long; different subject) and have recently really began to note what appears to be just that, a fear of being wrong. If I don''t try, then I cannot be judged as being wrong, or failing. This is at all levels of leadership, even adult. As a sub teacher for the last nine years as well, I perceive a problem with students not being allowed to learn by trial and error. Parents get all upset if Johnny or Suzie get a "C", even though that is simply average. But average is somehow not acceptable anymore. The once traditional "bell curve" of grading seems to have become more of a straight line at the low end with a steep skew to the top at about an 85 degree angle. It is interesting that the earlier thread about "Wimps" is now making its rounds on Scouts-L. I guess this question and that subject are closely connected.

Okay, let us see if I can be clearer. As noted by another, the idea that the LTP is optional is not given by any of the training materials used in our area. Now, whether or not it would be a reason not to be covered is questionable at best based on the volunteer protection policies; but it certainly makes it easier to prove intent to follow logical rules and so on. I cannot find anything specific about the permit itself, but there is some detail on the insurance and licensing requirements that are part of the permit. In our area though, as noted in the earlier post, some councils will not allow you in their camps without a permit. And the high adventure awards absolutely require permits being on file. And, of course, someone outside the troop having a vague idea at least as to where you are supposed to be is always helpful should emergencies or questionable events occur in relation to the outing. Frankly, I do not understand why anyone would have a real problem with this requirement any way. It seems to me to be a prudent aid to assuring the i''s are dotted and the t''s crossed in regard to travel. JMHO

Perhaps I have been mis-informed for years, but I thought one of the primary reasons for the permit was to make sure that you are covered by the umbrella insurance should something really severe occur, heaven forbid. My understanding was that the permit made the local and National councils part of the liability envelope. As an additional aside, they do require them at some out of council camps in our area, just to use them; and they do check. Also, permits are required for many high adventure awards, and cannot be obtained without a valid, on file, number. At least that is what is done here in Southern California.

Over the years in our area I have seen many top level athletes in county schools that are also scouts, often becoming Eagle sometime either early in HS, or just before they finish and turn 18. Yet many, when asked at BOR, just do not talk about it. One from my troop a few years back was captain of the water polo team, student body president, and graduated near the very top, receiving a full academic pass to NAU where he graduated with honors. In our own troop we have also had top distance runners, wrestlers, and many top academics who stayed in through HS, albeit, sometimes with sporadic attendance at times. This past year, I had one who had gone to another troop come to me for a reference for Eagle. This little timid boy who briefly joined us, moved to his brother's troop, then finally to a venture crew, was a starting lineman, all league football player. We all know that at times pro athletes are found to have been scouts, a few even Eagle. But, the perception of "goody-goody", the fairly regular photos that focus on cubs or first year scouts who are still small and still child-like in media, and of course the PC "garbage" that always makes the news are also a factor. One other note; I think the "gay" terminology used in most cases today has simply an "uncool" meaning, rather than the PC one, though the confusing overlap of definitions is not helpful. One way then to help might be to get locally recoginized teen scouts to be more prominent (with their cooperation of course). It would not surprise me if many would welcome helping to improve the image, as they probably recognize how hard it is for many. National could help by bringing back the ads with successful sports and entertainment celebrities that would still be looked to by youth and newer generation parents. Not sure how this would fit in the above, but it was interesting to see a photo of Jim Morrison's cub uniform in the WESTWAYS magazine this month. He was apparently in through Lion and pre-dated the Webloes program. The shirt has the old yellow backed numbers. Do not know if he went on to regular scouts. Not necessarily the image we would want in this discussion though.

Have just finished reading a bit about the new Chief Scout Executive, Robert Mazzuca, in SCOUTING magazine. A thought occurred to me (even heard the whirring noise) that now might be the time to write a letter to him about our thoughts on the program going forward, both good and not so good. If enough volunteers were to at least voice their opinions, positive and of concern, perhaps one or two might actually be taken under advisement. Then, of course, I may still be seeing the glass as half full and viewing it through those rosy lenses. Just a thought.

only a half dozen or so I am afraid. Have that many more lying about partially read. Moms sending kids to rooms and allowing books may have not been an oversight I suspect.

This subject reminded me of myself as a teen. Pull-ups were always almost impossible for me to do, yet I could do in excess of 25 parallel dips regularly, and 30+ proper push-ups in less than a minute. I struggled to do one or two pull-ups. This never made any sense to me, but I finally just let it go, as I was quite successful in other areas of physical fitness. I asked one of our local scouter doctors about this at an Eagle board this week. He told me that this is not really that unusual. Some peoples' bodies have muscle development in the chest area that makes it difficult for this particular motion to occur, even with much effort and repetition. So, in some instances there may be a legitimate reason why a boy may have difficulty. On the other hand, most of the ones I have seen that cannot do it are simply lazy and can also not do the other exercises at even a minimum level.

If you review the information listed on the CIEC site in regard to the questionaire, you will note that one of the items of concern is if the site would have usefulness during non Jamboree years, either as some type of training facility, optional weekend and summer programs, or even another high adventure location. So, that issue appears to be one that they have recognized.

For anyone interested, here is the link to CIEC site where the information is found. Seems legit to me, and that National actually is reaching out for input nationwide through local councils. Unfortuneately, it also appears that the info is not filtering down to the people in the councils; it certainly is not to mine. Yes,local properties could be considered if they were large enough and met the criteria. http://www.bsa-ciec.org/openrosters/vieworgpagelink.asp?orgkey=21&linkkey=13181

Ran across a link to a form from National on the Inland Empire Council site in Riverside/San Bernardino area of California. They are asking for suggestions for possible new permanent location that would be owned by National. Got the impression from the site info that this was a National search and suspect it has to do with the PC climate that continues to hound them. They did indicate that the 2010 event was not in any danger. The form gives very specific items to answer in relation to access, size, logistics and so on. Anyone else seen this?

John-in-KC; Not howling, but from our perspective on Eagle boards, we try not to have too familiar faces on the board, so as to avoid any hint of favoritism. One troop rep is always there of course, usually the advancement chair or his appointed rep. Back in "the day", before projects and harder early requirements, boards were made of community leaders much of the time. And of course, way back, there were special almost retesting boards. Do not know for sure if it is true, but the first Eagle Scout supposedly had his board done by Beard, West, and Seton. That would have been interesting. The main thing, IMO, is simply to get a broad understanding of the boy's accomplishments, character, and be sure he met the intent of the requirements. Coach if necessary, and always encourage them. It should not be torture. Our board chair uses the Staple's "Easy Button" as a prop at the start, and on occasion during the board (if the scout is getting too flustered). Funny how that tends to help.

There are a great many familiar cartoon scout related characters, as noted, and also many lesser known. I have a great copy of the Flintstones at the Jamboree from the 60's, an Archie cover and a related one called Tippy Teen, a Blondie strip, Donald and his nephews, Goofy Scoutmaster, Elsie the Cow, Ha-Ha Comics, Super Boy, and of course the Roy Powers and Little Scouts series. Also a lot of advertising promo items are out there such as Dennis the Menace, Ronald MacDonald, PacMan, Kermit, Smokey the Bear, M & M's, Tweety, and Taz. Whether or not they were approved, there are patches with Beetle Bailey, BC, and others I am sure. One of the more interesting series I have represented is the European Cat Scouts. Another more recent one I came across is one called Muslim Scouts; I have scans of two covers, and there may be more. There are at least two Simpson dolls, and of course the various Teddy's. Lot of other more peripheral items that take swipes at the program either tongue in cheek or for real. I have one from Playboy, an OzzieFest, and one called the Freak Scouts, as well as a number of slightly lacivious ones with "bombshell" characters. The scouts put out two or three series of great camp postcards with humorous things; most of you probably have seen some of them. I have accumulated dozens of miscellaneous ones, and there are likely hundreds more. The real point here is how this is another example of how much Scouting is a part of our culture, and that around the world.

Years ago one of my first Eagles was killed in a military training accident. His mother requested the troops' participation as honor guards, and I was asked to give a eulogy. Just about the most difficult thing I have ever done in scouting. I also was one of the pallbearers, along with one other troop member; both of us were in uniform of course. Over the years I have also been to a number of dedicated scouter funerals, and those of us who worked with them in the program, attended in uniform which was very appreciated by family members. So, there is certainly a precedent to do so. Unless the family specifically requests not to, I can see no reason why you would not, if you feel it is appropriate.

Very interesting discussion. I became steadily active as an adult in 1976, and remember my surprise at some of the changes that were in place at the time (see the ugly green handbook series of the period; the inner city idea). In 1977 I went to a commissioner training course at Philmont and could not help but wonder about these changes even more as "old timers" talked about the "taking the outing out of scouting", and so on. This period appears to be when the "gap" appeared, as many of the "old timers" threw their hands up and left in frustration; and by the time National saw the light and began reinstating things, they were either not interested, or simply too old to carry on. We were also suffering what I call the Viet Nam Era backlash, the rebellion of younger people against anything remotely perceived as military or regimented. Those of us who had just returned, and carried on, have seen the slow evolution back to many of the older ideas; but, as noted, many of the children we serve today have been frightened to death of anything remotely dangerous, and over protected. (See the great article about the Wimp Factor" on this board). On the other hand, while the lower ranks are definitely less challenging, especially without time frames between, and boy run boards of review, the higher ranks are in truth more difficult when the requirements are followed as written. Unless you were a scout after the mid 60's, Star, Life, and Eagle were mostly just passing merit badges, along with truly demonstrating leadership and good citizenship. Today, the Project adds a greater challenge to attaining Eagle that was not encountered by us. Again, if planned and performed as intended, this element is far and away the greatest growth experience the scout will have most likely. His ability to meet this challenge though is still built on the other elements, especially learning to be more self sufficient in the outdoors or other more difficult environments. Having been a regular Eagle board member for a couple of years now, I am encouraged by most of the applicants, especially the ones over 16 who have pretty much decided this is important afterall. Granted, some have barely met the requirements; but a substantial amount are exceptional and give me hope for our country and its future. Some of the merit badge changes really make good sense for the intent of the program. The old standbys are mostly still there, even though Camping was MIA for a while. And the options for Swimming and Lifesaving are not gimme's either. All the Citizenship badges, including Family Life are important in today's world; Environmental Science simply evolves from Bird Study, then Nature; Communications and especially Personnel Management are key life skills. But I also see more and more "dumbing down" of the intent of the requirements. Far too many leaders seem to not understand why actually doing the requirement as written is important, just do not want to ruffle feathers. The idea that Johnny Scout will have his feelings hurt if he is not able to immediately pass something is starting to pervade too often; and this is abetted by the over protective and indulgent parents. While I understand the reasoning behind the BOR not being a retest, the idea that spot checking is not allowed is absurd. I, for one, would welcome the return of the PLC/TLC BOR for T-1st, with one or two adult supervisors on hand to assure it did not get out of line. The boys doing the review strengthen their leadership skills, and the scout knows he is being judged by his peers and is more likely to want to shine, knowing that he is not going to put too much over on them. Ultimately, we, as leaders, need to try to continue to focus on the strengths of the program and find ways to keep it fun. My troop will never be noted as an "Eagle Mill", as we have only had 45 in going on 86 years; but I can say that the ones we have are real. There is a certain amount of irony that many who were run through the "mills" drop out soon after, and are far less likely to return as adults. And the scouts can generally tell you who is a real Eagle, and who is not. Paraphrasing BP again; "Scouting is a game that develops boys into men, without them really knowing it".

Have to admit, at times I am a bit embarrassed by the uniform; but only because, at 63, it seems to fit differently than it did when I was younger. But, seriously, I have had far more positive responses than negative in over 30 years as an adult. Most recently, earlier this month, we stopped at a McDonalds in Gorman on the way to our local camp, 3-Falls. Got the usual minor complaints about wearing their shirts, but they did. During the 30 minutes we were there, no one said anything negative, and we had at least three people thanking us and telling us the yesteryear stories. This is Southern California. Back in 76, I had an interesting encounter with one of the less wholesome individuals that lived in my apartment complex in Canoga Park. It was in the seedier part of town, and we had this group that sat on steps every weekend drinking, and generally being a bit obnoxious. I had a late Saturday morning meeting and came out of my door in my uniform. The gauntlet of this group was on the steps I had to decend. As I was wending my way through them, one said rather unkindly how he wished he could be a boy scout. Not sure what came over me, but I turned and looked him in the eye and said, "I bet you were never given the chance when you were a boy". He got really quiet, then said, "No, I wasn't". Then apologized and wished me well. The same thing may apply more often than we know today.

So, whose "idea" was this thread? Bet it just sort of "popped up" while musing about how to respond to some of the other less important threads.

At last, something that supports my own observations over the past few years. It is getting really difficult to get "boy leaders" to actually take personal control. They appear simply afraid to even try, as they might not do it right. The good part is, that once they finally do it, and find they can, they want to continue to make the effort much of the time. I substitute teach, and see the results of the micromanagement of parrents constantly. It does not help that the schools are so afraid of being sued that they will not stand up to students or parents. It is easier to simply allow much of the self destructive behavior to occur, or to sit the student in isolation to do nothing, or busy work without any direct supervision. And the idea of the "bell curve" of grade distribution is gone, except in theory. Most parents act as if a "C" is failure. Many of the grammar schools now do not allow tag, dodge ball, have no merry-go-rounds, teeter-totters, or classic slides and jungle gyms. Swinging is closely supervised, and don't dare bail out if you are a kid. You will be banned forever. Eagle boards are still overall encouraging, as the large majority actually have overcome most of these things on their own; one reason for so many 18 year old Eagles. But some troops are becoming reflections of teh schools, and appear to be unwilling to make "leadership" or true scout spirit paramount in advancement at the upper levels. I have been told by a couple of scouters that my reaquirement that a boy going for Star and above needs to be getting a "C" average in school, and have no "F's" (unless he can prove to me he is really making the effort, and simply does not get it)is not acceptable. To me, that seems part of my responsibility as a leader. I also try very hard to not pressure a boy who is not advancing steadily; rather simply remind him that he may be lagging behind some of his peers. In the end, Eagle is achieved if the "scout" truly wants to. I have seen more than one not do it, just because of pressure from parents. Also, I have seen a number of younger Eagles who immediately drop out, and have absolutely no appreciation as to the significance of the rank. It is simply another thing to add to the resume. Great article. Thanks.

Unfortuneately in our council, and from what I have heard over the years, in most councils, the COR is a paper tiger. They seldom ever actually exercise their vote at an annual meeting. And there does not appear to be much interest by the professionals to see that they do. I have heard of a couple of instances where a volunteer got their dander up and gathered a true represenatation from the sponsors. A good portion of the executive boards, and the head executive suddenly found themselves voted out. This is probably an area for a new thread; but it does relate.

Thanks for the various suggestions and ideas. As far as writing own releases, we have done that numerous times. It still does not get in there. But as noted, perhaps the wrong editor is seeing it. I am in the thought process of how to word a polite, but specific letter to the editor in chief. If that gets no response, then I guess we are just going to have to feed everything to the other local papers on the perifery.

I have sent a couple of emails to their web site regarding this, but other than our Eagle Dinner finally being noted with no date but 6 weeks afterwards, there has been no response. Am mulling over a direct letter to the senior editor. One of my troop parents who works for them told me Monday that he also perceives a bias, but is not certain it isn't coming from someone at the lower level. The paper has gone through some major revamping and staff changes this past year. It also has taken over many of the smaller papers in the county, so you may very well be right in noting it may be more organizational lapse than intended. Thanks.

There is a related comment regarding this subject in the interview in the last issue of the Paper Scouter. It is also noted in many of his various writings and articles in the British scouting periodicals. A book entitled B.P.'s Outlook is a really good resource. From the numerous scouting histories and B.P. biographies it is obvious that his religious beliefs were fairly broad, though probably based on his early experience with the Church of England. Hope this is of some use to your research.

I am in a council just north of L.A. and am struggling with how I should take issue with what seems to be an obvious bias in the local newspaper that covers the county. While unflattering or controversial issues make major appearances on front pages of one of the sections or on the editorial page, local events seem to be almost completely ignored. This occurs even when the information is presented on their formatted forms. Am I expecting too much from them as representatives of all the county? Should not major events involving Boy Scouts in the council be newsworthy? Should an Eagle Scout presentation appear on a timely basis when the paper is presented with the information 3 weeks in advance? The other large paper, the L.A.Times sent a reporter and photographer to our troop's 80th anniversary celebration in February. I was really fearful of the article that would appear, especially when he began his interview with me with a direct question on the Gay issue. I asked him to try to steer his focus towards the event at hand, and happily he did. He even came to me just before he left and told me how impressed he was with the long-term effects that scouting had obviously had on the past alumni with whom he spoke. The other paper chose not to send anyone, and I had to make two submissions, and three phone calls to even get its occurence noted in the weekly events page. Input. Comments?

I sat on an Eagle board last week of a fine young man who certainly had met the requirements for Eagle. But one thing really concerned me during the interview. One of the other board members asked the candidate who founded scouting and how the idea related to today. After a few seconds, the young man admitted to not having a clue. There is no requirement for scout history at all anymore in the advancement program. Should not an Eagle candidate have a basic knowledge of the history of scouting? Would like to know what others' thoughts might be on this subject. As part of it, is it feasible to develop a Scout History merit badge that covered the origin in England, the BSA, and the World movement. Thanks for your time and input on this subject.