5yearscouter

Beavah, In answer to what you said "Da Handbook is rarely current" yes, I know. The newest equivalent of the Advancement guide with some interesting changes is due out at Philmont this week. so handbook and Advancement guide (ACPP or whatever it's called) etc details requirements for advancement. We could do an overview in bylaws (or Guidebook) that says ranks go in this order, you get scout badge with scoutmaster, after that it's scoutmster confernce and board of review, and blah blah. summary paragraph or two maybe? for the COR bylaws say that they are annually elected and presented to the IH for approval. reality is that one person volunteered a few years back and there they are. In the face of questions or things he needs to make a decision about, he said he'd quit before having to make such a decision. bylaws say CC, co-CC, treasurer and secretary are elected each year. reality is someone volunteers and keep the job as long as they want and CC and COR agree(I don't think they've ever NOT agreed). bylaws say we vote on what to charge each year but it's not been discussed in 5 years or more. bylaws say registered committee can vote in committee decisions, but in reality the troop allows anyone in the rooom to vote, including scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster. so that's where the disconnect lies. if the troop committee is going to do their own thing, why have bylaws? or why not make bylaws match what they actually do. " committee doesn't "make it happen" as you suggest. The boys do. The committee only provides expertise and support." by make it happen I mean the adults make the reservations and payments when businesses won't accept reservations from minors, makes sure the troop has the resources necessary for the boys to use (say you need access to GPS that the families don't own, so we see if the troop can buy or rent some) but only those things the boys need help with. transportation of course, moving the troop trailer or supplies as needed. and I like this part "troop committee only approves the annual plan as a package, it does not micromanage on an outing-by-outing basis except where there is a clear safety issue." cause that is what I would like to see happen. not each individual outing picked apart and the parents of the new scouts vetoing things for the older boys to do because their baby can't go on a 25 mile hike (yet). Pushing the boys to plan a way for the younger or out of shape scouts to do 5-10 miles, older boys do more miles and end up at the same place for a portion of the campout--well I expect that kind of advice to be handed out by the scoutmaster at the PLC planning meeting so it doesn't have to get to the committee to be thought of, or for committee to end up canceling the event because its not "all inclusive."

I agree Beavah there are just so many documents one should stay up to date on to truly do justice to "following the rules and guidelines of the BSA" that it gets overwhelming. If you'd like to write up a summary of each of those publications--a list like that would fit nicely in a troop guidebook-- it would be marvelous!! I doubt you have time or inclination to do so though, do you? When BSA keeps changing the documents, it's going to be nigh on impossible to keep a troop detailed bylaws up to date. every time BSA changes, the other documents have to follow. Now a bylaws could say for advancement details always check the current addition of the Boy Scout Handbook --and then give an overview of progression of ranks and details of how the troop has boys sign up for scoutmaster conferneces and boards of review. but not detailed to the point of listing al requirements for tenderfoot. Or Safety issues see the guide to safe scouting (and other publications) with these issues the troop finds that we need reminders of (or troop policy) maybe sheath knives or maybe there is a troop rule of who or where you can teach totin chit. right now the bylaws say that they choose COR, and annually vote for committee chair, co-chair, secretary and treasurer. CC can then appoint other people as standing committee chairs. Last time COR changed the troop asked committe, someone volunteered, troop told the Chartered Org and they approved them as COR. they ask in pen committee meetings for volunteers for committee chair and other troop positions the people who volunteer get the job. COR will change at the end of the year when the chartered org changes. committee chair should change based on the mess he's made with filling out and turning in applications in a timely manner to council. but that's my opinion. I am COR of my pack, and have been CC of the pack for the last about 6 years now. I've had a boy in the troop for 4+ years, so overall I know they can run a reasonably good program or we would have left. Only when my son became SPL did it become very apparent how much the committee controls the actions of the boys. They are very Roberts Rules of order- move, 2nd and vote on everything that happens including approving the boy's choice of activities and changing or cancelling activities when they want to (not due to unresolveable financial or plannin issues, jsut they don't like the event). I'm trying to fix the wording of the troop annual permission slip which hasn't been changed since 1994, and planned to use BSA's hold harmless agreement wording. they want the committtee to approve it, and then the committee wants to take it all apart and rewrite it. I explained that BSA has lawyers writing that mess, we don't. COR and CC are actually just figureheads in my honest opinion, all the power is in the committee members with the old fogey loudmouths often swaying all votes in their direction. I've told them loudly and clearly if I take over positions, they aren't going to like it. I'm going to follow the BSA guidelines and where the bylaws don't agree, I will try to have bylaws changed to be more in line with BSA guidelines. The big difference I want to make is to define things as committee area of decision making, and program side for decision making. the scouts with guidance of the scoutmaster have control over these things. they take their decisions and refer them to the committee who works to make them happen (mostly events/campouts/outings paying for it, supplies, etc). If the committee can't make it happen as the boys planned it, they refer it back to the boys to see what adjustments can be made--committee doesn't just change or cancel things. It does get their goat when some of these big gruff guys talk about things their boys can't do and an adult needs to do it[planning events mostly], and I pipe up and explain that even as just a cubbie mom (as they see me) I think most of the scouts could do it if they are given the opportunity and guidance. I come at it that there is nothing the boys can't do for themselves, they just may not know how to do it yet. so we guide them and show them and let them go try it out for themselves. (This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

if the form said "Adults authorized to pick up scouts from Scouting Events when the parent/guardian is not available." that might be clearer. I'm really not sure that camp/troop goes to a lot of effort to track who is bringing a scout to events. As long as the scout has the permission slips signed, he could be delivered to the troop meeting place for the event by virtually anyone, ride with a friend's family who lives nearby, or come in on bicycle, walking or city bus even. Pick up seems the more important thing that should be monitored and it needs to be clear, *who can pick up the scout and take them home with them.* This is a non-leader person, often a specific relative, neighbor or friend. For my boys it would be parents, certain neighbor, certain friend, and grandmother. That's about it, plus troop leaders who would be able to bring them home in an emergency. I do think this is a form trying to do too much, but instead of getting less it seems to add in more. Guess we should ask for a generic website release form to be added to it next(in addition to the media release) On our troop information parents fill out when they register asks "is there a custody arrangement that leaders should know about that may effect attendance , or transportation of scout from meetings/events? [or something like that] Allows parents to let us know that mom has the scout on most campout weekends, so his advancement may be thwarted thru no fault of his own, or that mom doens't have custody and cannot pick the scout up from meetings. [changed from dad to mom to keep examples fair to both sexes ] We also ask for a description in layman's terms for scouts allergies (and severity, like anaphylaxis to peanuts), behavior and medical issues. Often the stuff on the med form doesn't help the troop leaders know--like what exactly is ODD and what might that look like on an outing? [Oppositional Defiance Disorder]

I'm in line to possibly take over as committee chair. I don't really want the job, because in any troop changes, I'll be up against 3 guys that are the "old guard" that have been in the troop for many many years. They don't want things to change and do put up roadblocks. Their kids have eagled and aged out and they are coming less frequently, but hit every committee meeting like clockwork. They were in on the last revision of the bylaws in 2003 or 4 and took out a bunch of stuff. So I guess the bylaws and such used to be about twice as long as it is now. :| The bylaws are not really followed at this time except what the 3 guys remember. A discussion in committee about what to charge for recharter and they'll say "oh it says in the bylaws that we have to charge $1 a week at recharter and $1 a week for dues at each week's meetings." So I requested a copy of the bylaws. Finally got a copy of the bylaws (had asked before and finally got them years after the first request). There is, by the way, nothing in the bylaws about what to charge except that the committee is supposed to review the costs of scouting and set the recharter and dues amount each October. so that's not bad and should be retained and actually followed. I've just taken the position of membership chair. There are all sorts of missing applications, adult position changes without youth protection(so they weren't processed) and non-payments from recharter from October. medical forms were in the file box from 2002. So I shredded 4 garbage bags of outdated med form info and insurance card info. I'm not taking on the job of redoing bylaws, but I'm doing a bit of an information gathering right now. Fred--I'm afraid if we get into the details of much of what you state, we'll be right back where we started from or worse. I'd like to get the committee completely trained all together at the same time on how committees are supposed to run thru BSA guidelines. and then have them discuss what should or should not be changed from that standard to meet our needs--I don't think much should change. Some things I really want changed like Bylaws don't need to say how the troop elects their COR for instance.

Well the troop has been in existence for over 80 years, the constitution, bylaws and standing rules predates most of the adults in the troop. they are most likely changing COR's at the end of the year, since our existing one is going thru bankruptcy. so along with that, they will redo the bylaws. they want something in writing about how their meetings are run and finances, and are people appointed, elected, who gets to vote on things. stuff that we should just "know" but well we deal with adults who need things all spelled out and just cause the BSA documents for troop committees says this or that, it may not apply to us cause it doesn't have our troop name on it. yeah, it's going to be an interesting upcoming months. My biggest thing is to let them have some kind of document to satisfy those who want to read it in print with the troop name on it--even if it's a copy and paste of everything BSA already gives us as guides for troop committees. But I don't want them to overstep the bounds turning this into (more of a) committee lead troop. A good set of bylaws MIGHT help with that. might not.

Jet, I think I was standing in line in front of you checking in my son at Camp Raymond Sunday..... I've seen NYLT staff patches up above the right pocket for many years. NYLT patches I usually don't ever see those on uniforms at all.

yeah, I tried that one but they want more than that.

Just got a copy of the Troop bylaws 58 pages long, constitution bylaws standing rules and a parent guide thrown in for good measure. old, outdated, includes uniform info (red tabs and red topped socks) and old advancement stuff. So we need to scrap this thing and start over. who had a good, reasonable, fairly short bylaws for their troop?

Thanks! I forgot to look at the Med form FAQ. Forms should not need an FAQ and a full page of directions to fill them out.

BSA Medical form has a spot to list names and phone numbers "adults authorized to take youth to and from events" and "adults not authorized to take youth to and from events." Going thru the troop med forms getting organized for summer camp and see parent have taken that to mean many different things. We have parents who have listed only the parents on the list of who is authorized. we have parents who have listed only troop particular adult leaders (who by the way are not going to summer camp) and we have parents who have listed friends and family members who could take scouts to and from events. and some who have tried to fill in all of the above on only 3 lines. ==>My question is how do you interpret the question? 1. the persons authorized to pick up the scout from the drop off place where troop leaders then transport them to the summer camp or other campout? (by default isn't that the parents anyway?) 2. the persons authorized to transport the scout from the drop off location to the summer camp or other campout? (troop leaders should be assumed, but oftentimes other parents/not leaders have to drive to get enough tranportation, so 3 lines is not sufficient unless it says "scoutmaster or his designee") 3. the persons authorized to pick up or deliver the scout to the drop off location when parents are unavailable? (similar to #1, or maybe the same?) 4. the persons authorized to pick up the scout from the camp in case of emergency/injury when parents are unavailable (doesn't seem to fit the situation, but I've parents try to fill it in from that point of view as well). 4. some other interpretation? The who is NOT authorized to take youth to and from events is more clear-- usually utilized when there is a custody situation where say dad is not authorized but could show up to try to collect the scout.

Well just talked to Joseph. the unit wants to include girls and wanting girls to wear the cub/boy scout uniform. They don't have council's permission to do so. Seems he's been in a few meetings trying to not get his head on a platter about the whole thing. oops! And the pack in question isn't even one of his units, he was just the guy who answered the phone when the newspaper called. It was a fairly short conversation before Joseph changed the subject to something more pleasant for him. it seems like the pack in question contacted the newspaper to get more publicity and to add a bit of pressure to council to register the girls and allow them to wear the uniforms. newspaper called the council office, joseph answered the phone and gave his usual speel about girls are allowed in venturing units and the newspaper connected the dots incorrectly. council said girls to be registered must be in learning for life or venturing--although there was some mention of sometimes units are/can register girls in the soccer for scouting program, but I'm not sure on that. I thought the soccer for scouting was gone, but seems there are a few units left here in the valley. council is trying to straighten out the situation with the pack, and make sure just the boys are registered in the cubsthe pack is threatening bad publicity that BSA now wants to kick out the girls from the program.

well of course if a cubbie has camped 100 nights I'd give him the patch that is available at the scout shop. but that is going to be very very unlikely IMHO, and that patch is not necessarily an "award" since the one at our scout shop is totally unregulated as a temporary patch. like I said I might count cub camping to get the award for a boy scout, but I wouldn't track cub camping for this award. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx since it says it's for boy scouts and venturers.

The boy scout trail list of things that would qualify as camping makes sense. Your unit could probably edit that list to fit your needs, that makes logical sense, and then the key is to apply it equitably to all scouts in the unit. Things count or don't count, don't be wishy washy, that's when parents get upset, to see something done differently for their kid than other kids. It's a boy scout award IMHO, it's not mentioned as an award available for cubs in any of my cub scout literature. I would probably not count cub scout camping. I'd say if you need to count the 4-5 nights of webelos encampment/woods type camping or the pack overnighters 1-2 nights a year to get the award, fine. But why not just wait another couple months and get the camping nights in as a boy scout? for my unit, I would count nights in a tent. If a CIT or camp counselor actually camps all those nights of summer camp, I'd count them. Of course my oldest is CIT at summer camp for this summer again, and does get the luxury of a lamp and alarm clock with electricity in his wall tent he sleeps in on a wooden platform.

I'll have to call Joseph Curtis and find out more about it. He used to be my DE and is now field director in Grand Canyon Council. Very interesting stuff!

I vaguely remember that if you write the name on the outside of the aluminum foil with mustard or ketchup from a squirt bottle it will survive the charcoal. anyone remember? you could do ham, butter, brown sugar and pineapple in alum foil, they don't take long at all to get warm, just gotta melt the butter, even if the pineapple isn't baked, it will still be tasty. dessert we've done a stale plain donut placed in the foil, butter and brown sugar and pineapple wrap it up and put in the coals and you make a mini pineapple upside down cake.

My pack we give the card and belt loop or pin the first time earned. and give a card the first time earned as a webelos. any other time you want to work on the requirements, you can send your grown up to the scout shop to buy duplicate belt loops or pins.

If you look at the old Cub Scout program helps guides, they didn't do much of any of the achievements and electives in the den meetings, instead they focused on the theme activities which sometimes counted as something. so in theory, parents were supposed to do most of everything at home. In comparison, the "new" cub scout delivery program has plans to do a LOT of the achievements and electives within the den meetings. Parents and scouts are sent home with homework to complete, which in many instances ends up being fill out this worksheet or handout (just like school). so to BSA it looks like the new cub scout delivery program has a lot more done in den meetings. In reality good den leaders used the program helps guides as just that, guides for ideas. Most den leaders tended to work thru most of the cub scout program within the den meetings, and in some instanced did everything possible. for instance if it says plan meals with your family you do it in the den meeting, calling over each kid's parent to stay and work on it with them. or for cooking, everyone would cook together for a picnic or something on an outing. In our pack the scouts would get their rank badges because the den leaders knew parents didn't want to spend an hour or so a week watching the kids play games that didn't count for anything and then go home and do an hour or 3 of homework to get the book completed in time. parents wanted the stuff to be done in the den meetings, so that's how many packs would do it. so whether the new delivery method = more or less homework on achievements it will depend on what you expected from your cub scout leader to begin with.

Oh we have a Bear den leader with the similar problem. She regularly puts in for 30 or more belt loops for boys--oh these are the ones they've earned all year but we never put in for them, to the tune of hundreds of dollars for just her den of 5 boys. We have a budget for 2 a month, so yeah I guess since August they could have earned 20, but 30? we ask her to tell us which 2 are the most important this month and submit the others next month, cause we will only pay for 2 a month. I hate that rule, because occassionally the Webelos will do 3 or even 4 belt loops a month--like when working on sportsman, or maybe they'll do math, chess, map and compass and another in a month of meetings. but we had to make the rule to keep from going bankrupt. she also is at 1 gold and 10 silvers for all of her bears.... and finished the bear rank with 3 of 5 boys in about 7 den meetings..... She doens't want to be leader next year and we are jumping for joy!!

Well you wouldn't want to move them on to webelos right after they earn their Bear rank, cause right after their Bear rank they should be working on all those very very fun Bear electives!! You gotta be sure you are completely done with doing anything in that bear book , cause if you call them webelos and start on webelos, you can't go back and do the bear stuff once you start on webelos. Our pack graduates the boys to the next rank about the last week of school (last week of May, next Weds as a matter of fact, May 25th). That gives them a new hat, necker, slide, and BOOK. The new book right at the end of the school year, snags them to want to move up to the next level. They see all that cool stuff to do and even if they can't make it to many of the pack things over the summer(dens meet sparingly) they are more likely to come back strong when school starts back the 1st or 2nd week of August.

If you want quick success you can do pita pocket pizzas --fill pita with spaghetti/pizza sauce, cheese, wrap in foil and put on a small amount of coals, wait a minute or 3 and flip over. I think coal prep is the biggest issue with those, if possible, put something in the coals that can get hot--like a cast iron skillet, or a big flat rock, so they put their pita pocket on top and then flip it over but the coals dont' burn a hole in the aluminum foil. you could take a small tortilla, add precooked chicken and cheese, fold in half, wrap in aluminum foil and as long as it gets warm and doesn't burn they could have a folded cheese crisp. similarly do a foil meal with the meat precooked and the other ingredients partly cooked. ending up with some raw chicken or hamburger happens if you aren't used to doing it by practicing ahead of time, and you want the kids to have success not food poisoning. we also do things like bananas, chocolate chips, marshmellows and other ingredients in a tortilla, folded over and placed on coals where if it doesn't quite work out right, as long as there is chocolate in there, the kids will rave about how wonderful it is.

Quote rtullier: "Just as you state in your post, in one of my previous posts to this thread, I described the hours and hours and hundreds of my own dollars that I have given to the Cub Scouts to date. Given that you don't know the people involved and their respective actions that were felt by many parents at the event to be unwelcome at best, and offensive to everyone present, you are, respectfully, not in a position to judge this situation and the use of the term "allowed". " hahehahehahehehahea I'll raise you your one year in scouting, and your hundreds of dollars-- take what you've done and multiply times 2 boys thru the cub scout program (over 6 years now, yeah I need a new user name). I'm at thousands and thousands, of hours and dollars and miles driven for scouting. I've run thru Derby with my kids 8 times now. still haven't quite gotten it right no matter how many people would offer to make a fancy cabinet to display the cars on race day and spend hundreds of dollars. It's a different situation each year, but if handled with grace, and with the spirit of scouting, it ends up with nobody going home in tears. There is then the annual discussion of buying a new track and changing this and that, new and improved software and more and more money thrown at the problem. And change of derby chairmen and yadda yadda yadda.

Right now the troop uses scoutlander website and sends most emails out thru there, which does not keep an archive of what is sent. A troop email address could be used to send copies and auto archive, and for those without login status to the troop email account, they could just cc to the troop email address so there is always someone else on the email and it can be archived. That's what I'll recommend. I'm mention to the troop the it looks like BSA is trying to make a social media guideline and that youth protection is their concern(2 deep, no 1 on 1 contact) and suggest that the adults just think about keeping things more public than private. If they want to read the link I'll send it to them. It will probably make their heads turn around and around and around. As it is, they sign boys up for a scoutlander account, and enter the boy's personal info, without an express parenting permission slip for website use, and they don't necessarily follow the guides of the FCC for minor's use of websites. but that's another subject for another thread.

Just like the written word here on these forums gets picked apart, disected, turned inside out and tone is lost in the delivery, the same is true for emails and other electronic communication. by email you can't tell intent, you can't see the joking raised eyebrows and hear the chuckle under the breath when someone isn't being serious. so words may get twisted and exaggerated. In person you can sit and talk to someone, if you walk off they have an opportunity to still try to get your attention (even if it's with yelling). with electronic communication if you get upset you can delete, block, or just turn off the machine--so something that could be dealt with quickly in person, blows up out of proportion electronically. It's a powerful way to communicate but it does have it's hazards, that teens truly do not seem to understand. Heck, the amount of intimate details posted on people's facebook pages out in the open leads me to believe that not many adults see the potential hazards of online communications.

Trying to decide if I should bring this up in committee meeting Monday night or if I should sit on it and wait to see if BSA clarifies the policy. since it mentions youth protection policy, it seems as if it would apply to all adult leaders.... In the short term, it may be best to NOT collect all the scout's personal email addresses (a project that has just been started in the troop) and to start using a troop common email address for most email communication so a copy is archived at gmail.

1. faulty track our pack uses a wooden track that is at least 20 years old, made by hand when the pack ran it's first race. Each year there are a few complaints about the track having some faster than other lanes, or lanes that aren't smooth. each year we suggest that the parents that don't like the track figure out a fundraiser to buy the brand new fancy metal tracks that everyone would want to see. The closest fix we've ever gotten is someone counter sunk all screws so none stuck out to catch a car. someone this year sanded and repainted the track and then applied a bit of wax to make everything smoother. If one lane is faster than another lane, you run all cars on all lanes. makes the race take longer, but then everyone gets the same amount of good lanes and bad lanes. our track is a 4 lane track and each car runs down each lane the same number of times. finish lines for tracks all have the common problem. how to stop the cars from continuing off the end of the track without damaging the cars. help them come up with another idea to stop the cars without much bounce back and limit damage. 2. how a pack decides to run a race is not standardized. some packs issue the scouts tickets they can run down the track in any lanethey want against each person they want until they run out of tickets. in this type of race, there may be no awards, or each time a scout wins they may get a ticket to race more. if they get a ticket for winning against certain cars, the boys may choose to race those same cars over and over again. the pack may decide to do single elimination, double elimination, perfect n, or all sorts of other things. Help them to find a way to run cars that seems to take care of the faster lane issue and how to 'race off' those who won against each other. there is no perfect answer, each way of racing has advantages and disadvantages, including how much time and patience you have. a perfect race would have each car race on the same lane one time, record times and put them in fastest to slowest order. but that is absolutely NO FUN for the boys and teaches nothing about sportsmanship. 3. depending on time, fixing damaged cars may just not work. we usually give them 2-3 minutes to try to super glue things that break, but due to the limitations of where we race, we have to be done by a certain time or else, we don't spend much time fixing broken cars. we do have certificates for "the car that would have won if it's tire didnt' fall off," or the "jumped off the track and broke" car award. 4. who wins has no bearing on who was running the races. we try to mix up our track judges so those who have kids running in that race aren't judging that race, but it doesn't always work out. so if we get 2 people who will do the whole thing for 4 hours, we probably will just let them sit there. sometimes their kid wins because dad is very interested in derby racing and finds it important and fun himself. when dad start making the kids car and not letting the kid touch his own car, we give dad a car kit and have a dad's(or all adult) race for those overcompetitive parents. Perhaps you need to enter such a race yourself? 5. suggest the pack issue official rules, however, most packs will run the rules of what's in the box that the block of wood and wheels comes in and that's their only rules. size and weight requirements. often the actual "HOW WILL WE RUN THIS RACE" is no determined until a day or two before the race. 6. ending blocks do not impact how fast a car will run. and there really is NOT a way to design a car that will withstand running into the end of the track with a lot of force. it's usually just sheer luck as to which cars break and which cars don't. There is no overseeing body to report a pack race issue with except the Pack committee that runs the pack with the cubmaster. If you go with complaints, go with answers, and be prepared to run the next race yourself. depending on your attitude and accusatory manner when you go into a committee meeting to complain about the derby, you may find 1 you are now in charge of it or 2 the derby is cancelled for next year due to parental complaints. When our council received too many parental complaints about the council derby, ending with fisticuffs and police being called due to irate parents, council just cancelled having anything but "just for fun,no prizes" council derby. I ask, how big is the trophy that your pack gives out?