5yearscouter

Well we do sell popcorn, but popcorn sales in our area have been going down even if we add in more store front sales. So we are looking at something else to do as well, and have had a few suggestions to do the wreaths. Lots of elementary schools and high schools do the coupon books and discount cards, as well as candles, cookie dough, and stuff. Wreaths and 1st aid kits are about the only thing I've not seen come aroud the neighborhood.

NOBODY around here sells wreaths. except the grocery store, kmart etc. this would be for my pack, so add in cute cub scouts to the selling strategy. The troop is a city away that makes so much on their flag program. The pack doesn't have that kind of money. As for relocation maps, eh.... You gotta love the heat, if you don't love heat, you better move elsewhere. We had a thunderstorm last night, and actually, gasp, got rain. Settled all the dust, but makes today a bit humid. So it's 100 on the back porch and 49% humidity.

It's not like going to the pool with the whole den while this boy does his aquanaut and the other boys perhaps brush up on some swimming and have FUN would be detrimental to anybody's program. There should be time built in for FUN, and in this instance telling her you can't do the bbgun/archery cause of council rules, but you CAN do aquanaut in this way would be offering an olive branch to the mom--rather than distancing her and putting your foot down that no it isn't in your program. Realize also that this webelos scout may be feeling totally left out and not really happy missing out on the things due to his mom. Drawing him back into the program by doing another visit to a pool would be a no-brainer for retention in my honest opinion. Lets the boy know you care about him, let the other boys know that they are part of a team/den/patrol and sometimes you do circle around and do something over again to help out your friend. Aside from the fact, doing aquanaut again, all the way thru for everyone would be an opportunity to remind everyone that scouting isn't one time and done--that every year they'll need to redo that swim test, that every summer camp they go to they'll need to redo that swim test, so they should get comfortable with it. it will only help them when they become boy scouts.

So what does it cost if you take in a den full of guests to the Y? and then watch them swim, have them swim laps if they haven't done it yet. Have their parents work with them in the pool so it doesnt' look like you are giving lessons, which is what the Y often frowns upon--they only want paid lessons given by one of their staff which is what it sounds like they are trying to set up for you. otherwise, is there any other pools available? BSA requires someone to be designated a lifeguard--not that you HAVE to use a real lifeguard-- for a safe swim. so you could do it at a family pool with someone acting as lifeguard and others as look outs, but it will take a few laps to get far enough to do the webelos aquanaut #1(we call that the cub scout swim test) or the boy scout swim test. don't make it more difficult on yourself than it has to be. just check if your council requires a tour permit for swimming outings.

In our council you won't GET the archery or BB gun belt loop or pin unless you earn them at a council camp (day or resident) because that is where they'll be given to you. You can't buy them at the scout shop. So that, as they say, would take care of that. As for Aquanaut, there is no public pool that you can take all the scouts to and have them do a swim test and practice all the stuff and get the Aquanaut pin? You don't have to go to boy scout camp to pass the boy scout swim test. any den leader can administer the swim test. And you can certainly go over the BSA safe swim requirements that may be different than church camp safe swim requirements. We have a local swimming pool where a lot of the life guards used to be boy scouts, so they can work thru the requirements often on a non-busy day with the boys and hit all the points quite easily.

I personally don't see a problem with the scouts getting paid to erect flags around town at people's houses for 8 holidays a year. It started as the scouts posting flags around town at the city offices on holidays. And people wanted flags at their houses too for the holidays. We have a lot of retired folk who may have the $ but not be able to physically handle having a flag on a 12 ft pole out in their yard for all the holidays. So it started out as the boys getting paid a minimal amount to help out putting up flags that the customers bought and paid for. Over time it became a big deal over 200 paid subscriptions for people who want flags at their personal residences or businesses--they pay $50 a year and they don't have to worry about it. If the flag gets yucky, the troop replaces it and retires the old one. If they are sick, the flag still goes up for their holiday, if they are out doing errands or at a party, the flag comes down before dark. We still put up flags at the city offices, but the city pays for extra flags they want around town to make the city look extra special for the holidays. It seems to work out for all parties. We do a lot of free flag ceremonies for businesses, govt, sports games, parade starts, funerals, anyone who asks. The two things do seem very different in my mind. one is a service, where anyone should get paid to provide, and one is community service, that is done out of the goodness of your heart and goodwill.

Recommendations for a reputable, good wreath company by someone who has btdt? anyone to avoid? realize we are in AZ, so shipping may kill us depending on where they come from, so free-reduced shipping may be important. anyone ever sold fire extinguishers or 1st aid kits?

That leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Scouts do flag ceremonies as community service. If you want a flag related fundraiser, sell subscriptions in your neighborhood to businesses or homes to have scouts go out and put up a flag for them at 8 holidays a year. We do that and make almost $10k a year.

Engineer, I'm not talking about leaving your kid out in the woods alone. I'm talking about the Scoutmaster having a plan to account for everyone, but it wasn't (gasp!) a written plan that met with the mom's approval and he might get sued. Aside from that, if one of the scouts got left behind at summer camp, two of their ASPL's, JASM and many others from the troop are working up there--I'm pretty sure they'd be ok at camp for the little bit of time til someone realized they weren't in a vehicle for the ride back home. I've seen checklists fail and someone still get left behind. All it takes is a scout to get out and go to the bathroom after the checklist is put away by the troop leader and nobody realize there is an empty seat where there shouldn't be one. That's where each individual driver taking responsibility instead of just one adult and the buddy system making sure nobody goes off by themselves.

Thanks Beavah, I do worry all the time about people who say "oh but if you get sued..." I was wondering why you hadn't replied to this thread yet. Were you busy out doing scouting instead of posting on the internet or something? We had a mom(supposed to be a leader but) worried about the boys getting home from summer camp and asking the scoutmaster to check everyone into cars for the ride home in a particular way on a particular form that she made. The scoutmaster referred her to the committee chair--if she thought it had to be done a particular way, then the CC could do that paperwork. The scoutmaster has a method and has never left anyone behind before, but it requires actually knowing the scouts and using buddy systems and such, not paperwork. She said "but if you get sued your method won't stand up in court cause you don't have documentation." He asked her who exactly was going to sue him, even if they accidently left someone behind at summer camp? she didn't have an answer.

August we are back to school the first week, so it's time for recruiting and staring up a new year of scouting. We might do stomp bottle rockets this year if I can get someone besides me to make the pvc thing. Otherwise our favorite for recruiting was an actual roundup/cowboy theme. everyone came in and iced a twinkie green and stuck pretzel rods into the twinkies to be cactus. ate their snack. then we did a quick flag ceremony welcome everyone, passed out new member packets to everyone in attendance and then broke out for games. we had roping with a fake steer head and someone who knows how to rope to teach the kids and milking (sawhorse with rubber gloves stapled underneath with water and poke holes in the gloves and go to town. race your friend to see who can milk the cow fastest. pictures on a fake horse with real saddle and cowboy hat and leather vest. and then a few other run around drive the grown ups nuts games. It was LOUD so very hard to tell parents how to register their kids, or answer their questions. we did try to get them to go into the next room from the cafeteria to fill out paperwork but they wanted to see their kids have a blast. gathered everyone back together and gave them some homemade trail mix with a silly saying about cub scouts is like trail mix. had existing scouts since ghost chickens in the sky. and that was that. The pack went from 3 scouts with visiting helpers from another pack to 30 that night. It was just corny enough that kids had a blast and adults liked it too.

Separate the popcorn sale from the recruiting if at all possible. So parents don't see hey you want me to pay this much to join and then go buy a uniform and all the bling, and then you are doing this overpriced fundraiser and expect me to buy popcorn and knock on doors and sell a bunch to fund the pack. Where the heck did all the money I just paid go to? yes we've tried explaining where the money does go(we charge just a teeny bit over what you have to pay to register with BSA) but that doesn't seem to make a difference in parent's attitudes. Do something fun and interesting that parents that just joined can see the value of before the fundraising season starts. they'll be more likely to participate. Give incentives but don't get carried away. Each kid doesn't need a pile of stuff, especially if it's junk. Buy some cheap camping gear types things (roll up sleeping pad, sleeping bag liner, mess kit, battery powered flashlight, maybe a folding chair) and give those things out to the top sellers--to link the whole idea of the fundraiser to concrete--we get to go camping. Or put every kid who sells popcorn's name into a hat--or their name in hat multiple times if they sold a lot of popcorn. draw the names out and give those kids the choice of prizes (in that instance, throw in some candy bars, free popcorn and such to make more chances). explain that cubs help the pack go, and even if you only sold 1 or 2 things of popcorn you did your part. We do not have a minimum amount each scout has to sell. WE MIGHT do that this year, since we are trying to lower fees to everyone again. But I have always hated that. We have families from poor areas where mom and dad alternate shifts at the quickie mart or walmart so they can't go sell at work, and don't have a lot of time on the weekends to sell or live in tough neighborhoods where we don't want them going door to door. we get them in front of a grocery store to sell, but depending on the time of their shift, they may only sell 1 thing. but that's ok, cause each kid's effort is what makes the pack go. We do tie in you sell popcorn you get $x off of your registration for next year. If you sell over $y amount of popcorn you get $z off of summer camp next year. Don't let the sale drag on too long. We know that for take order sales, that popcorn won't be available until November 15th for delivery. working backwards from there, the deadline for the pack to order all the popcorn we need is Nov 1st ish. if popcorn sales start much before Oct 1st you will have parents and families and popcorn kernels totally burned out on the idea. Of course we also have to work around fall break the 2nd week in October, so if the flyers and such aren't out to the scouts before then, we are toast and sales will be light.

Well for camp staff, up to a point, sure they can bring their kids and settle in for the summertime. But I sort of expect the kids to be old enough to HELP at camp, or keep themselves busy and out of the way and at that point maybe a bit of seen and not heard. And yes there is a bit different feeling if it's a boy or girl. Guess been around boy scouts so much with things being totally male oriented it's shocking to see the little girls. I do have a problem with underfoot staff little ones at a camp that doesn't have a program to babysit the little ones. Day camp there is a place for the little ones to go but they have to be potty trained and under age 13 or 14. over that they can volunteer to help or be staff if over 16. But at a boy scout camp that doesn't have anything to keep the little ones occupied, it can be awkward and seem um, unprofessional at times to see babies, toddler or even cub scout aged kids running around. The Camp Director brought up his family but they live in the house on camp and there is a lot to keep the kids occupied. I know they do go out and join in some of the stuff--but they are older and "fit in" so to speak. Commissioners don't have the luxury of a cabin or even a nice wall tent. they bring up their own family tent and there just isn't anything for their kids to do for the week unless they participate in everything going on at camp. when they are scout aged, it's ok, a bit weird when it's scout age daughters doing the merit badges in class with the boys. And then toss in a few cub scouts sitting there and a few cub scout aged girls too. Weeks where the merit badges are overcrowded I'd like to NOT see those extra people there. I heard several reports that campers and scoutmasters got grief for disrupting the baby's nap time to go into the health lodge sick or needing medicines. that shouldn't happen whether it's a family friendly camp for staff or not.

Yeah while it seems the baby wasn't interfering, the staff isn't able to function as staff usually does cause they are taking care of baby. When the baby needs her, she's not able to function as staff at all. yes, they've really gotten obnoxious with the commissioners bringing up whole families and siblings. Maybe they just need to remember that non-registered people aren't covered by insurance. So if they get hurt at camp, or while shooting, or whatever, they aren't covered by the BSA insurance, but certainly council or camp or camp director may have some fault in a court of law. Hate to think of making rules based on who is covered by insurance and who is not, but it has to at least be taken into account when setting policy. I don't think commissioner kids especially non-scouts should be able to take merit badge counselor and facility times away from paying people during open shooting, or the free time to work on merit badge stuff later in the afternoon. If a sibling is taking up the time of the leatherworking or pottery merit badge counselor and a scout comes up to work on their required for merit badge items, the sibling should not take precedence. They are using the resources (time and facilities) without paying. I think the week after you left camp is when the crud hit the fan for vomiting and diareah. I know a dozen boys and adults in the troop got sick, and all of the cope course, most of the trading post, and many of the areas had all the staff out sick for days. You just missed the worst of it.

Yeah it really shouldn't have to be in the camp guidebook/leaders guide that siblings and cubbies aren't supposed to be at day camp. I know it started because a volunteer commissioner many years ago couldn't come up without bringing their boy scout aged kid. so then they let boy scout age kids come up with the volunteer commmissioner come up for the week and basically do summer camp for free. then occassionally a not quite boy scout aged kid would come up with the commissioner and they'd kind of look the other way as long as the kid stayed out of the way. Then I know some people took this and ran with it to the point the family in question tried to go up as commissioner and bring the whole fam damily-- dad, mom, 2 boy scouts, 1 cubbie, and a daughter of age 14(not registered in a crew). They went round and round with the camp director then, and he let them keep up a couple of the family, but not everyone and not the girl. but he may have let the cubbie stay I don't recall. Now they think they own the joint, and are advising other people to do the same for commissioner, and well if it's ok as commissioner to bring your kids it's ok as a unit leader (ASM) and committee member to do it as well. I think there will need to be a few letters to council to work out that problem. of course a camp staff tried to bring their baby up to work in headquarters with her for the summer too --not sure how that worked out. I think family camp is working on taking over this council camp if they don't put a foot down.

If Raymond took a more organized method of doing merit badges, they wouldn't be such a merit badge mill. But then 83 badges for 15 scouts wouldn't have been possible, would it? that's a boatload of badges! Not sure if the boys I know working at Raymond should be proud or not The camp director told the Lawton people last summer that if they came back he'd make room for them regardless, and supposedly charge them less. Not sure about the charge them less part how that worked out, but he made good on the make room for them. I know Geronimo opened up Session 8 for Camp Lawton people and they'd charge just what you'd pay for Lawton but there weren't many takers. The dining hall didn't look so bad, but the health dept was out there numerous times for a cold food not kept cold and the hot food kept hot issue in the actual kitchen --it just doesn't have the room to properly prepare and store food for the 800 scouts and staff they fed on week #1. That is the biggest issue with why so many were sick. All the staff have gotten the creeping crud just about, and numerous have needed antibiotics to beat the crud. Camp director (who is also council Program Director) didn't tell kitchen staff that he added all the Lawton people until the day before camp started, so the kitchen actually ran out of food week 1 until they could get a delivery and were feeding people still after 7pm. Next year they are supposed to work out a deal with CC and Lawton to just plan on boys coming to Raymond and they'll give some kind of kickback from GCC to CC. I've not heard anything about CC merging with GCC--probably part of the big plans like back east. Of course they are also thinking of breaking each of the campsites at Raymond into 3 campsites, a, b & c and giving them a picnic table and fire ring to make it look more like you aren't sharing. Some of the units were unhappy to be sharing a campsites with 3 or 4 other troops even though there was enough room for the tents.

eolesen so your unit was one of the ones from Camp Lawton that made Camp Raymond OVERFULL this year? I know it really helps you guys out to have a place to go when Lawton was closed, but it certainly overtaxed the Camp Raymond facilities since they were already full but added Lawton campers to their ranks. There was room in the campsites to camp, but the merit badges were packed and the dining hall was taxed past its limits. Did your unit go to Raymond already? If not it should be much better in July. And you might avoid the montezuma's revenge going around camp in the month of June. If you went in June, how many of your boys were vomiting and had diarhea? We had over a dozen.

to the OP You have several options. unless the 2 boys have been removed from membership in the prior troop, (which is unlikely) they are still registered scouts. That means they are covered by insurance and registered scouts can attend provisional camps if available. If adults who currently want to become leaders in the new unit, were leaders in the prior troop and have not been removed from membership in the troop (which is also unlikely) then they can attend summer camp as well --but would need to find someone who would take them provisionally. In that instance the other troops that you have visited may allow you to attend summer camp with them provisionally that way. I've seen that happen when boys and adults were "in between troops". Finding a troop to go to summer camp is gonna be difficult at this late of date IMHO. Or you can transfer these boys and adults to another troop that you have visited with. That usually costs $1 plus any troop fees. If you talk to them about your situation--that you are leaving a troop, thought about starting your own troop, but don't have enough boys to make it happen--they may accept you. They may also look at you weird and worry that you'd be joining their troop in order only to try to recruit 3 more boys for your start up unit. They also may not have "room" to bring you to summer camp with them unless they have last minute cancellations. You can beat the bushes around your kid's school and see if anyone wants to join your troop, run ads in newspaper, put up flyers at the grocery store. this will take time. see directly with council registrar what it would take to register 2 boys as lone scouts with their parent. This may work and then you'll still be scrounging for a summer camp location. Ideally you'd spend the summer getting a plan in place, calendar, place to hold meetings, CO, supplies and materials and camping gear donated if possible if you really really have your heart set on starting a new unit. recruiting flyers created and approved if you are able to send them home with scouts, info from DE about what areas you could recruit from--sometimes councils or districts have things divided up by school district to keep units from stepping on toes of other units and causing grief for the DE and council from fighting units. Take the boys camping as family camping and figure out if this is all going to work out for you and the adults you have worked out. Take all the training you can find, even if it means driving a long distance to do so asap. get prepared so you can hit the ground running. even if this summer ends up as toast for the boys to go to summer camp. it just may not work out.

I kind of expect them to come home dirty and stinky. The showers at most of our camps have hot water for about 1 minute, just long enough to get good and wet, but not long enough to get wet, soap up and then rinse off without freezing. so even if they go into the showers, they never seem to stay long enough to get clean. Both of my sons their whole life before bed put on a clean tshirt and underwear and clean socks if it's sock wearing weather. so they continue that at summer camp. So even if they don't actually shower much at all, they won't smell absolutely like sweaty butt and old socks when they come home. My 12 year old went to a week of summer camp with 7 pairs of clean tshirt, socks and unders, and came home with 1 of each that weren't used. That's cause Friday night before leaving camp they decide to sleep under the stars and take down tents early. so he didn't want to change clothes out there in the open I guess. Of course all the kids will allergies and asthma came home coughing and wheezing from sleeping out in the dusty camp without tents to cut down on the allergens a bit.

We had a sleepwalking scout for a few years. They would put bells on his tent zipper and on his ankle so if he got up someone would hear him. cause he did it over the course of years and the whole troop had a plan for what to do when they heard the bells. His tent mate was usually a light sleeper who would hear the bells and take care of it by encouraging him to lay back down and he'd go right back to sleep. they'd always set up camp so his tent was furthest away from an hazards (roads, drop offs, rivers) just to make it a little easier to head him off before something happened.

Well I agree with all ya'll, but then I get "but where does it say that in the ruuuuullllleeeesssss???!!!" Well I've answered to the CC that if he has to parse the rules line by line to try to find a way that cubs or siblings can go to boy scout summer camp for a week, then he's missed the whole boat, but tried to say that a bit nicer. Or that just cause camp made an exception one time doesn't mean that exception is now the rule. For instance I know camp said it was ok for a scoutmaster who had to take his webelos to the camp for 2 days when his wife had emergency surgery, and as soon as he could find someone to take his webelos home and watch him that he did. that the SM was the only adult from the troop able to go that week with the boys, and camp provided the 2nd adult. We talked about how it's not age appropriate for the cub to be at boy scouts. The answer is that Oh it's not that big of difference between a 1st year webelos and a young boy scout-- he can go do some leatherworking and a few of the other crafty things in the afternoon free time when the program areas are open to all scouts to work on stuff. I explain that the open time is for the Boy Scouts to get individualized help with the crafty things, not for the staff to use their time helping a non-boy scout work on the crafty things. we talked about how it's not fair to the cubbie--now when he joins the troop he's already been up to boy scout camp, he's ate in the dining hall all week, slept in the tents, "worked" on merit badges, and knows the whole thing. That he'll be the boy in the troop that says "oh no, we are going to THAT camp again. I've already been there enough times." The excitement and fun will be gone. But the common sense stuff that cubbies don't go to boy scout camp is not making a dent in the attitudes of a handful of these people who see it as no big deal. Show me where it says in the rule books for boy scout camps. Camp Director I think did end up going round and round with this family. What he told us is that the rules say participants have to be registered boy scouts-- the family in question says "but webelo isn't a participant, he's just a visitor and you say visitors are ok." that well he's covered by bsa insurance since he's a cubbie, and that we are paying for his food so what's the big deal. yeah they don't get it and I'm not sure how to help them buy a clue.

Well when a scout was caught by other scouts with porn on his computer at a campout-- the boys handled it pretty well. They took the computer to his parent with the report of what happened, SM was also notified. He was talked to by the SPL and ASPL when it happened and they explained how disapointed in him that they were especially since he did this at scouting where younger boys could have seen it and that would have been illegal. It was a great example of boys in action. Then when OA elections came up, he was the only boy who didn't get half of the votes, the boys didn't think he was worthy. He also didn't get chosen for a position at election time. It took him a whole year before the boys felt he was showing that he was following the scout oath and law and reearned their trust.

Let's see 31 scouts attended camp. and there were too many adults--8 I think it was. There are always too many adults when they go to this particular camp but less adults than the last year they went there, since they raised cost from $75 per adult to $100. I think camp should charge even more money. so SM, 2 ASMs, 1 committee who pulled the troop trailer up and home (should have stopped there IMHO, plus CC and 3 other committee. Total of 8 adults. they needed more than that to transport everyone(not enough vans and SM couldn't drive at all due to recent surgery). many parents voluntarily carpooled kids up to camp (3 hours) and then went home, so most of the committee that stayed at camp should have done the same and gone home after dropping off the scouts. The family that brought up the sibling, are ASM, committee and boy scout (been in the troop 1 year) and sibling that just becamse a webelos on june 1st. They were told by the SM that they had to watch the sibling and be his buddy but scouts tell story that he was in merit badge classes (like leatherworking and pottery) making stuff and then trying to get boys to go to the trading post. Right now the discussion in committee/other families is if they could do it with their webelo, then I should be able to do it with my webelo next summer--and we have a lot of families that have both cubs and boy scouts. Oh and if the CC says it's ok to take his daughter I'll take my daughter too! so this is going to have to be addressed and faced or summer camp is going to end up with a boatload of little ones running around. (This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

A call to council camp director ahead of time he said no siblings, not even if they are webelos. however, they brought him up anyway (driving up separately from the rest of the trop) and paid $100 for him to go(the fee per adult to pay for food after the first 2 adults). SM and CC had no issue with it, since over the years they've seen "a few" siblings at summer camp at that location so it must be ok. yes, that means SM and CC are at odds with some of committee, old SM's, most exisitng ASM's and COR. I imagine this will blow up at next leader meeting, and I'd like to have you guy's take on this a bit. Scouter forums usually helps me see all sides better in these kinds of situations.(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

This may end up partly a vent about registered scout family bringing a webelos scout age son to a week of summer camp with the troop and how that impacted the boys in the troop--since sibling needed someone to be his buddy for the week[and parents didn't act as his buddy] so he kept pulling boys away from merit badges to go buy snacks at the trading post. argh But my goal of this post is to gain information from other troop's policy and experience, BSA policy[GSS etc], quotes [cub scout leader book, age appropriate activities list], insurance coverage(or not), etc. to help the troop make an official policy about siblings attending summer camp with the troop. The policy will also need to address when siblings are allowed on "family camps". And decide if there needs to be any variation in policy depending on gender, age, and if the sibling is registered as a cub scout or not. so what info can you give me to help get all the adults on the same page in this? I know there will be hurt feelings, that's the dynamics of some of the parents--including the CC who sees no reason he couldn't bring his daughter to boy scout camp for the week either... (This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)